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| lojz10. 11. 2014 19:05:45 |
What's your opinion on avalanche backpacks? In our mountains very few people use these backpacks yet.
Is the reason for low usage that they are (too) expensive or does the opinion prevail that it's better to move in "safe" conditions?
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| viharnik10. 11. 2014 20:17:14 |
Movement in the mountains, as well as in life in general, is never 100% safe if you're not a saint.
Certainly every modern safety equipment contributes to improved safety in certain %, but doesn't guarantee miracles. So we can never predict what mass of snow and ice will swallow us from above and then no equipment helps, only a miracle of survival. Such an avalanche practically grinds you up or concretes you moss and all. Otherwise, ABS in an avalanche can help prevent serious injuries to the spine, neck and head and is a recommended piece of winter equipment. Many mountaineers who are aware of the danger of new snow in the mountains prefer to wait at home for so many days after snowfall until the snow cover stabilizes and allows much safer movement and tour execution. Sometimes, when there were no technical avalanche aids, older mountaineers were more cautious and went on winter tours a week or more after the last snowfall. They say that spiritual nature also has its laws and doesn't allow just any human interventions in freshly fallen snow. From this perspective, Indians have Mont Meru (Kailash) as a holy abode of gods inaccessible to any mortal.
So in winter, one must go to the mountains (if and when) with sense and consideration of the conditions on the mountain, without relying (let that be the last) on modern avalanche technology and aids.
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| IgorZlodej10. 11. 2014 22:12:17 |
I used it for one season on ski touring (about 30 times). I actually activated it only once for a demonstration of use. I don't know statistics and analyses here. I know of a case where a ski tourer was carried away by a relatively small avalanche that didn't bury him at all, but just tossed him around in the dry snow avalanche, and the ABS backpack was successfully activated when the avalanche had already stopped after about 150 m. Certainly, mileage in winter mountains is needed, measured in 10 or more years of active participation. Just like the avalanche probe, the ABS backpack shouldn't create false security for us.
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| Keko10. 11. 2014 23:50:34 |
In recent years there's really a lot of talk about avalanche triplets, ABS backpacks and various aids that extend survival time under avalanche debris. When I encountered these things in alpine school, I got the feeling that in practice they are quite ineffective and not worth relying on. I feel that in reality there are even more accidents happening due to avalanches, as these aids give more of a false sense of security and people risk more than they otherwise would. I'm really interested in how many lives these things have actually saved and on the other hand how many deaths they've caused due to apparent safety. I haven't come across any independent study that speaks in favor of these aids, considering all these factors. Studies by manufacturers don't count for me.
When I look at the destructive consequences of snow avalanches in nature, various probes and ABS backpacks are poor consolation.
My opinion is simply that the safest protection against avalanches is the fuse we have in our head that tells us, don't go to the mountains when there's avalanche danger, especially if you don't have the necessary experience. Even chamois and ibex are nowhere to be seen then.
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| lynx11. 11. 2014 09:14:51 |
That's effective more for heliskiing and other off-piste powder hounds, and even then you're of course not immune to injuries. There are plenty of videos where it helped, but for classic ski touring it doesn't seem sensible to me.
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| Žiga2211. 11. 2014 10:29:43 |
Avalanche backpacks, avalung, probes, etc. are all devices that come into use when you've already "fucked up" and it's questionable if you'll get out unscathed despite expensive gear.
So definitely better prevention (checking conditions, even with snow profiles, observing surroundings, common sense), than cure (all the above mentioned aids. Avalanche triplet is still of course essential in winter mountains).
Anyway, you maybe wrote a bit awkwardly:
"Is the reason for low use that they are (too) expensive or prevails the opinion that it's better to move in "safe" conditions?"
ALWAYS move in safe conditions.  As written above, such equipment doesn't give you ability to surf avalanches. 
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| lojz11. 11. 2014 14:47:10 |
Yes, I wrote the second part of the sentence "awkwardly".
I am aware that you have to monitor conditions and go to mountains when things stabilize and do safe tours.
I was more interested in why ski tourers here don't use avalanche backpacks. Is it really only the high price or does the belief really prevail here that this thing, when(if) you're caught once.... can't help at all.
Why then is it blasphemous to go on a tour without the triplet? If you already choose time and location where it's say safe, why take probe, shovel and probe, but not ABS?
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| Žiga2211. 11. 2014 14:52:43 |
In my opinion, the reason for non-use is still the high price. In Austria, Switzerland, Germany, France, use of avalanche backpack is slowly becoming standard.
One of the basic safety rules in mountains is not to go alone. That's why you carry the avalanche triplet, so that others can help you or you others if someone is buried. IgorZlodej can perhaps provide some statistics on how much using the avalanche triplet increases survival chances.
And where it's safe in winter, you can never know 100%. It can be "only" second degree avalanche risk in an area, but still have wind slabs/deposits in some gullies, slabs etc. that release completely spontaneously.
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| IgorZlodej11. 11. 2014 16:45:31 |
As I already wrote I have no statistics on ABS backpacks, nor on the use of the transceiver set. Perhaps the commission for avalanche rescue at GRZS handles that. Of course the number of buddy rescues will never be known if no one speaks about these cases, but every winter there are also a few such cases here that end "happily". Using all these aids is definitely sensible and I recommend it to everyone, hoping no one will need it.
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| tslok111. 11. 2014 16:55:45 |
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| ljubitelj gora11. 11. 2014 17:34:59 |
Besides what you wrote it's also important to know the terrain in dry and winter conditions, local knowledge where the problematic parts are. You can't buy that unless you take someone who knows the terrain or a mountain guide. Gear everyone buys themselves what they can pay. Shame to save if it's a hundred/two hundred extra euros 
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| Keko11. 11. 2014 17:50:23 |
From this quite in-depth analysis, which includes some data that the producers of this gear prefer to omit, my prediction is confirmed. People take more risks and the number of avalanche deaths doesn't decrease. We can even read that Austrians invest a lot of effort so it doesn't even increase. May it sound blasphemous, but I still claim it's better to go to mountains responsibly and prudently without all this gear than irresponsibly with all possible gear.
Most responsibly acts the one who takes one of these aids and doesn't risk more than otherwise.
Unfortunately practice and statistics say otherwise. People unfortunately risk more and nullify the effect of these aids.
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| Daaam11. 11. 2014 18:23:11 |
My view on this: If possible have all gear (avalanche transceiver set + ABS backpack) however, when you have it still hike in mountains as if you had nothing of it.. Prevention, common sense and proper gear reduce risk almost to minimum.. Without certain amount of risk it just doesn't go and you have to come to terms with that.
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| SamoK11. 11. 2014 18:34:15 |
Ah, I miss the good old times when gear was used only when there was no other way, not for some false security.
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| ljubitelj gora12. 11. 2014 11:09:44 |
Logical that everyone should have avalanche transceiver set with them about this advise mountain rescuers instructors mountain guides. On course lots talk about it also in AO mountaineering school...
Kibuba:
http://www.kibuba.com/Zimska-oprema
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| Žiga2212. 11. 2014 14:25:52 |
So we won't talk about the selection of avalanche gear on the upper link.
A bit cynically said; it doesn't matter how good a beacon I have, what's important is how good the ones others on the tour have (or better said; how well they know how to use it). 
@LG; do you have an avalanche transceiver set?
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| JusAvgustin12. 11. 2014 15:05:39 |
this will be even more interesting...
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