| Tadej9. 11. 2013 16:49:38 |
Continuation of the topic about Gorenjska...
Becar 5.11.2013 I think the Kamnik corner doesn't belong to Gorenjska.
alpin 6.11.2013 Kamnik, not Gorenjska.?!! http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorenjska
JusAvgustin 6.11.2013 local patriot klemen! From Medvode downwards it's all swamp...
Becar 6.11.2013 Alpin, I think it's a mistake on Wikipedia. Already the fact that they write something about Oberkrain and Carniola shows they stepped into fog. The map could show the historical province of Carniola, but not Gorenjska at all. These are two different terms. The Kamnik area belongs to the Central Slovenia region, that map is wrong.
Okmodko 6.11.201 Becar, you're completely off the mark. Carniola was divided into upper, inner, and lower. More among people than anything else, but still everyone knows that the Kamnik corner belonged to Carniola, then you can logically conclude it's Gorenjska, because what else could it be. The border of the three lands is at the Carinthian Rinka.
Becar 6.11.2013 Well if this claim from Wikipedia holds that the border of Gorenjska is Savinja, I advise you to go to the Savinja valley, you can choose the bank for me, and tell someone there he's a Gorenc, you'll probably get one around... what an interesting map this is. Today I realized I'm also a Gorenc. Now I'm informing my relatives that we're Gorenjci. Very interesting...
VanSims 6.11.2013 Becar: Mengeš, Radomlje, Kamnik that's traditional Gorenjska!
The aunt of my grandmother, who passed away about three years ago, was Topouka and when she was still strong she liked to cook something good, preferably something opohoua! wink Also spoke G as H.
Anyway, still better Central Slovenia than Zasavje, where they wanted to put us in regional planning about 5 years ago. Good it wasn't adopted because those places with Trbovlje, Zagorje,... have even less connection than with Ljubljana.
Becar 6.11.2013 VanSims, things may change over time, but currently I work in Mengeš (where H/G variant is used, which proves nothing in connection with Gorenjska, as this feature is limited to a very narrow area around Mengeš). My partner and 2 colleagues are from Kamnik and I just asked all three if they are Gorenjci, they say "could be too, basically no". There, interpret as you wish. Also official explanation that Kamnik is not unequivocally in Gorenjska, for those who were wrong: http://www.stat.si/obcinevstevilkah/Vsebina.aspx?leto=2012&id=60
pikica1 6.11.2013 Either yes or no, don't fuss, meanwhile I call them what else some Gorenc or other.
Gorenc can't be everyone.
@Becar you know what, go with those two colleagues to the bar and you'll see what happens. If they pay for a round they're not Gorenci already, if they say they forgot money at home then it's a bit suspicious. But do it a couple times, sometimes a person really forgets money at home smile so take some with you, so you won't cry later
Becar 6.11.2013 Well, I also conclude from that they're not Gorenjci, because they often treat to coffee
primoza 6.11.2013 One thing are statistical regions, another historical landscapes.
http://www.gore-ljudje.net/novosti/34833/
http://www.sed-drustvo.si/upload/files/content/zbornik-Etnologija%20in%20slovenske%20pokrajine-internet.pdf
Becar 6.11.2013 Obviously even the experts are not unanimous, because statistically it's central Slovenia region, geographically as said on the border between Gorenjska plain and Celje basin. If you ask residents, you get different answers. Wikipedia says otherwise, some lady on gore-ljudje says otherwise, in geography we were taught differently. The only nonsense to me is the one saying Gorenjska borders Savinja. Kamnik costume is supposed to be the same as Gorenjska costume. I know many Kamnik people, I'd rank them more towards Domžale than Kranj. Also the valley opens towards Domžale, not Kranj. Kamniška Bistrica flows that way too, people go to work that way etc. Claiming Kamnik is Gorenjska is at least controversial to me. But borders can be as many as people, since such borders are artificially created in people's heads. Otherwise don't worry too much about it, for me Kamnik can be in Carinthia too. Best regards
Hribovc88 6.11.2013 What Gorenjska, no way, just because there are hills around doesn't mean Kamnik is in Gorenjska. Similar with Ig, some say it belongs to central Slovenia region, some consider themselves Dolenjci. By dialect I'd rank them as Dolenjci. If Kamnik is Gorenjska then Rateče is Prlekija or something hahahaha. I think we all agree that real Gorenjska is where there's already enough wind and where even wind isn't good.
alpin 7.11.2013 We all know where Gorenjska and Styria lie.!!
sirt1 8.11.2013 Sorry to return to the disputes once again.
@Becar: CZ Lexicon Sova-Gorenjska-ind.mid.:Kranj,Jes.,Šk.l.,KAMNIK,Medv.,Trž.,
Becar 8.11.2013 If the lexicon says so, then it must be true. NOT! language. Today I asked additional 3 Kamnik people and one older colleague from Mengeš. No one considers themselves Gorenjec. Very interesting. They say the actual border with Gorenjska is somehow along the Krvavec ridge and from there southwards.
Sometimes one wonders if someone writing expert articles has any connection to what they write.
sirt1c 8.11.2013 How many residents of Slovenia don't consider themselves Slovenes, even though they live in Slovenia?
Okmodko 8.11.2013 Convincing Becar that Kamnik is Gorenjska is like medieval people that the earth is round. One really wonders what times we live in, that people are so uneducated. These are basic things everyone should know. Literature tells you everything and there are countless historical maps that were officially used. Just open them. Nothing else. Asking people if they feel Gorenjci is such nonsense that it's more sensible to turn 360 degrees and go away
Becar 8.11.2013 Well, my opinion on this is completely opposite. The most important is where the locals feel they belong. Similar we had once in the topic Prisank/Prisojnik and Mangart/Mangrt. In high school geography they taught me Kamnik is not Gorenjska. I'll follow the locals' views and education, not some seemingly all-knowing writer of some expert article. Others follow your own judgments freely. Best to all, including those who think differently.
Okmodko 9.11.2013 Haha then we can argue if here is Slovenia or Bosnia. Many feel Bosnians. Also Turkey expanded to Germanic lands. And many Styrians live in Ljubljana. So we could start thinking it belongs to Styria.
You're right gams. Sorry, but sometimes I really can't hold back when I see how illogical and totally uneducated people are. Otherwise it's not worth arguing, because the one who never read anything is always smarter and won't let anything explain, as they don't understand what literature means and where things come from.
gams44 9.11.2013 speechless
VanSims 9.11.2013 Yeah, same with these places. There are so many immigrants from Ljubljana that many really feel central Slovenes. Now even their children born here. Comparison with guest workers here and in Germany is in between.
So, you can't ask people what they feel...
Becar 9.11.2013 Usually the smartest are those who read one article and think they know everything. In reality they have no contact with reality. Like an engineer who reads how to make a car and thinks he can make one. In reality hasn't held a key in hands. On top, these highly educated people are rude to others in statements, as that's their defense mechanism, because in life they achieve nothing otherwise.
You hit it exactly Okmodko. I only asked Styrians, Bosnians and Turks living in Kamnik. Good you figured that out. My sample was wrong because I didn't think a black person in Kamnik could give wrong answer. I wouldn't figure that myself. Thanks for enlightening me. Good we have such.
Okmodko 9.11.2013 Man for God's sake go to the library and look at countless historical maps created in Carantania, later Habsburg monarchy and Austria-Hungary. Through all that history these landscapes started forming! Go, go! Get interested so you don't spout such nonsense here that you don't even hear in 1st grade. And find out where names gorenjska, notranjska, dolenjska come from. Something is up, something down and something inner! In what? Yeah in the land of Carniola for God's sake! Its borders are drawn in thousands of books! Go read Valvasor. Know him? Or is he also some smartass who read one article??
WHERE DO I LIVE??? Can't believe it.
Becar
9.11.2013 What are you mixing Carniola here for now? smile You'll obviously have to go to the library again to check countless maps. Since you mention it, I can tell you even Carniola didn't border Savinja, and it was much larger than today's Gorenjska. Carniola ended at Črnivec pass.
You say where the name Gorenjska comes from. From mountains right. Or maybe from Gorenje refrigerators? Then Velenje is also Gorenjska smile. Since mountain definition is everything over 1500m, Peca is in Gorenjska, also Uršlja gora, not to mention Raduha, Olševa, that's all Gorenjska. Hehe can't believe really what level some are at
What is down for you, up but inner? Isn't everything inner? Isn't down also inner?
So you don't go to library too much, you can look at this map:
http://www.hervardi.com/mape/teritorialni_razvoj_koroske_1000-1918.jpg
See Savinja? And border of Carniola? Now your claim that Gorenjska is upper part of Carniola doesn't match Wikipedia which moves Gorenjska border to Savinja. I can only laugh at Wikipedia and you big smile Concepts of Gorenjska and Carniola are completely different.
What are the first two letters on Kamnik license plates? Among other things. smile Ah, those are wrong immigrants from Ljubljana big smile Just telling you too VanSims, people go more from Kamnik to Ljubljana than vice versa.
Okmodko 9.11.2013 Ah now I see you don't even have basics cleared, so no point talking about anything.
Just this, you mix statistical regions with traditional. Kamnik is central Slovenia statistical region not Gorenjska, that's true. But when did people call themselves central Slovenes I don't know. Maybe you, not me. Central Slovenia region is newer origin and formed mainly on economic reasons.
That map of yours describes development of Carinthia or Carantania. Shows when which region separated from it. Only borders of Carinthia are drawn. Other borders around Carniola changed later. You can't even find proper source.
If you like browsing internet and don't want to go to library read the last chapter of Carniola on Wikipedia. KranjskaKranjskahttp://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kranjska
And look at map of Carniola and say where Kamnik belongs then if it's in Carniola. Dolenjska???
If you're so sure about name Gorenjska explain also Dolenjska and Notranjska. So Dolenjska has many valleys and Notranjska many inners underground, right?
Explain also connection why Germans call Gorenjska Oberkrain, Dolenjska Unterkrain and Notranjska Mitterkrain.
That border runs along Savinja I never said and also on Wikipedia you like mentioning there's no border drawn along Savinja anywhere.
You keep explaining, people will love reading your expert analysis that will be preserved for years and bring good mood to all.
Oh and look at map of Slovenian dialects and explain why in Kamnik they speak Gorenjska if not Gorenjci. From now on I'll send expert questions to you, I see you're such intellectual.
Becar 9.11.2013 In Kamnik they speak Gorenjska. THAT'S A GOOD ONE
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