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List of forums / Slovenia / General talks / Hiking and mountain guides

Hiking and mountain guides

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ljubitelj gora19. 03. 2013 11:30:02
I didn't find anything with searching, and I have one question as an example: let's say winter Grintovec—on this route crampons, ice axe, helmet and experience are needed, walking with crampons, stopping with ice axe... I'm looking at this website mountain guides:
http://www.zgvs.si/besedila.php?pid=11
Quoting:
The mountain guide will take care of everything,
your only concern will be walking, climbing or ski touring and enjoying.

So does the mountain guide then bear all responsibility? He will take care of everything, but what about those who have never had crampons on and an ice axe in hand, who are more "clueless"? I myself needed quite a few trips to get used to crampons and ice axe.
How about on winter Triglav.
Price for winter Triglav:
Price:
One-day tour: 230 EUR (130 EUR/person with two registered)
Two-day tour: 400 EUR (210 EUR/person with two registered)
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Holcar219. 03. 2013 17:20:51
Probably he will have to take responsibility, especially with "greenhorns"velik nasmeh he is best prepared all-around and people take a mountain guide to the mountains with them to feel safer and enjoy as much as possible. Gv should manage in mountains in all conditions. At that price especiallyeek (I've known about it for a while). Anyway, ask Igor Zlodej!
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VanSims19. 03. 2013 17:39:48
Mountain guide goes with group of hikers on narrow path past abyss and says: "Watch out no one slips into the abyss, but if so, look right and a wonderful view will open up." eekvelik nasmeh
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Becar19. 03. 2013 21:24:00
... and someone falls over the edge, guide yells down: "you ok?" Back comes: "don't know, still flying" velik nasmeh
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GregorM20. 03. 2013 00:26:40
Mountain guide will take guest in winter to Grintovec or Triglav on short rope. That means walking 2-3 meters ahead uphill or behind downhill. Rope always taut and if guest falls, guide stops him. In case of harder section guide can uncoil his rope, climb ahead and belay guest classically.

Compared to other service professions the price doesn't seem high to me (approx 15 eur/h).
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Becar20. 03. 2013 07:57:28
With two registered, the price doesn't seem too high to me either (of course if not black market work). Interesting to see the price for say 10 registered.
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sla20. 03. 2013 08:00:20
Here you can inquire about everything: http://www.zgvs.si/
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1mitjas20. 03. 2013 08:00:44
In winter on such tours we take at most 2. Gregor already mentioned the reason, namely guests walk on a taut rope. More than 2 you can't control anymore. For certain harder tours the ratio guest:guide is even 1:1. Therefore the price would be the same, as such a group simply needs more guides.
Best

Mitja Šorn
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VanSims20. 03. 2013 10:06:37
http://www.bergsteigen.at/de/bericht.aspx?ID=14298

So you won't complain about the price! mežikanje Matterhorn is indeed Matterhorn, but if mass tourism and all the rush with which they do the tour as described in the report really deserves almost five times the price, let everyone (those who understand German) judge for themselves.

Swiss... jezen
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JusAvgustin20. 03. 2013 11:11:16
Ours are still underpaid, considering the kind of capitalists they deal with. Not to mention all the training at their own expense, all the necessary equipment and other costs incurred during those years of training. Otherwise, I strongly doubt anyone hires a GV for ascent to Grintoveczavijanje z očmi Banal example, like this topic which by the way is already open, and similarly the topic on responsibility in mountains is open. So much for forum transparency.
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ljubitelj gora20. 03. 2013 12:58:14
@GregorM: Thanks
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dprapr20. 03. 2013 13:16:41
The mentality here is still such that we all know everything and don't need anyone. And we don't value all work correctly. The price is never too high if it saves a life!
If someone plans to do two or three good tours a year, choosing a mountain guide is the best. If they want more, they'll have to join some training anyway so as not to endanger their own safety.
And no need to doubt that the mountain guide won't "take care of everything"!

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GregorM20. 03. 2013 14:50:15
Comment on the article about guiding on Matterhorn:

The Hörnli ridge is relatively steep and crumbly and even solo climbing there is not the most relaxed. To have an exhausted tourist on a short rope who can slip any moment, and above you another 100 similar ones, is a recipe for accident. Therefore turning back ropes that don't climb the lower easier part in 2 hours is a safety measure. Already 10 years ago they promised not to guide unknown guests directly to Matterhorn without a prior preparatory tour. Obviously agency greed and tourists' desire for instant achievements are too strong, so the silly race uphill still remains.

According to my info most mountain guides don't do such stupidities already for their own safety. But it's certainly good that hikers discuss and inform on forums about mountain guide services, so there are no disappointments like described in the article.
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jax20. 03. 2013 17:46:54
The price is never too high if it saves a life!

That's moralizing.
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dprapr20. 03. 2013 18:33:10
Moralizing?
I agree, but only until we reach the point where we are in a critical situation and would give anything for someone (GRS) to pull us out. Before that, every service is too expensive.
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jax20. 03. 2013 18:54:02
That's the point.
Mountain guides do their job. Just like doctors, nurses, firefighters, police, soldiers, you name it. And these are only those who save lives directly. Then you have teachers who train rescuers to do that. And a broad layer of people who create the social environment with their work in which such services can function at all (including those hated politicians and bureaucrats). And finally the extensive real sector that finances all that. Not to mention farmers, from whom our lives really depend. And yes, all that in one way or another "saves" or at least "cares" for our lives.
What do I want to say? Simply that if we accept the logic that "human life has no price", then actually a broad sector of society can demand virtually unlimited wages. Really, from many professions human lives depend indirectly or directly, but that doesn't mean it can't be properly valued based on its difficulty and demand. And I think we should look at the work of mountain guides the same way - it's not some elevated mission on which human lives depend, but simply a job. A job with its conditions, demands, characteristics, responsibilities. And as such it can be financially valued, even if the client's life may depend on it.
And I have nothing against mountain guides. On the contrary - it's demanding and responsible work that definitely deserves decent pay. But I don't put it on a moral pedestal.
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Holcar220. 03. 2013 19:20:33
The price compared to Matterhorn, which is admittedly what it is, isn't excessive, what I wanted to say is that many people can't afford it anymore.
You'll say, just don't go to the mountains!
I think it's still better if people go to a winter or any hiking or mountaineering course and go to the mountains themselves, of course also with their friendsnasmeh
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VanSims20. 03. 2013 21:19:48
Matterhorn is just a mountaineering version of mass valley tourism a la Versailles, Venice, Florence,...

This reminds me of the times when I preferred spending vacations and free time traveling around Slovenia and Europe rather than in the hills. Just like in the hills there are solitary paths, pathless terrain, peaks for connoisseurs on one side and mass destinations a la Triglav on the other, so it was with my travels: On one side tourist spots a la Paris, London, Rome, Provence,... and on the other, say the silence of remote rural French villages in Massif Central, Alsace or Brittany, away from tourist hustle (which I could afford when I started traveling around by car instead of Interrail). Both are interesting anyway.

The above article about racing up Matterhorn and the mass tourism there involuntarily reminded me of a visit to the fully touristified Scottish Loch Ness. Tour via official Tourist Office: rush, the guide was also the driver, minimal stop at each point and off we went, if you were late they didn't wait at all, they just left you there,... So it happened that I stayed a couple of minutes longer in the museum and missed the boat ride on the lake. "Sorry Sir, we are punctual!" mrk pogled zavijanje z očmi

Well then when I had a car I planned such tours outside urban cities (where Interrail doesn't go mežikanje ) independently and I can draw a parallel with an independent hike in the hills or with a mountain guide.

In 'valley' travel there are advocates of agency travel and guides (i.e. the agency plans everything for you) and on the other side independent travel with your own vehicle and your own guidance with a guidebook, your own plan, accommodations,...

Personally for me the second option was always better: that is really YOUR trip that you prepared, planned, executed, experienced, saw what you wanted and took away nice memories. In short, compared to a trip planned by an agency, this is really YOUR trip. That's real traveling, the other is agency instant tourism.

Similarly in the hills: a tour where the mountain guide takes care of everything is NOT your tour. It's not full enjoyment. Someone just drags you up! There's no planning, studying the route, attention to details, equipment, overcoming difficulties, effort, excitement, enjoyment at the summit and after the tour that everything turned out well again,... That's not there in a guided tour. That's not your tour. It's not a tour you identify with.

It's like buying a row house instead of building your own with your own hands. You have no relation to such a 'factory' house, you can't identify with it. Or if instead of cooking lunch ourselves, we heat something from the store or even go to McDonalds. Unfortunately today there's a rush prevailing, everything instant, everything so that we have to make the least effort, let someone else do everything for us... That's fine too and partly right. Not everyone can cook e.g. (not even the writer of these lines mežikanje ) But then we can't say we did something ourselves. We didn't travel somewhere but they just brought us there and we were there. We didn't conquer the peak or they dragged us there. We didn't do the tour but were just at so and so many m above sea level.

If our everyday life already rushes forward quickly, it's really a shame that we spend our free time like that too where we should really relax our imagination and enjoy the activity that attracted our attention.

Maybe I'll go with a guide to some peak sometime myself. But if so, it will be just an exception or if more of us decide for some occasion like a get-together, birthday gift or similar. Otherwise I stick to tours I can do independently. I'd rather enroll in some course or acquire knowledge or gradually increase difficulty to what I want to achieve. Then every tour is really yours and you enjoy it and every detail from preparation to getting home. Otherwise you can ask yourself if mountaineering really makes you happy or you're just an instant tourist mountaineer.
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Holcar221. 03. 2013 21:52:35
To @Van Sims' excellent post I'd add a few things. I've personally in summer and early autumn been witness multiple times to crowds of tourists (not hikers!), swarming to Triglav, many times poorly, if not desperately equipped people, for whom conquering Triglav is the one and only goal, Triglav is the beginning and end of their hiking career. If they huff a bit, grit their teeth and sweat, they'll somehow drag themselves up to that Triglav to then become real Slovenians. That's probably what they tell themselves. Such people don't hire guides, such people don't care much that they, clumsy and inexperienced as they are, can plunge into an abyss, don't care that they can get caught in snowfall in mid-summer (yes, that happens here too!). Their main interest is conquering some peak to prove themselves to themselves and their surroundings, while mountains and nature in general have no emotional value for them, they're not emotionally attached to it, which is common among users of this portal (including me). Actually, mountains are almost worthless to them, just a bunch of rocks, dirt, bugs and wood that serves or should serve the world just so they can prove themselves to themselves and surroundings.
It's been said many times that the true value of nature can't be expressed from an economic perspective. If at all, very difficult and only partially. It can't be expressed in units, it makes us happy in our heads just by EXISTING. Many people aren't aware of this. This awareness is least present in the aforementioned people, who incidentally litter the environment enormously. In principle I have nothing against them, I'd just advise them to hire a guide at least for their own safety, even if the grandeur of the experience is lesser. If they can't for whatever reason, they should at least gradually acquire experience like everyone else, first Šmarna gora, then everything else. It's not exactly necessary to attend some course, although such events are an important contribution to safety in our mountains and awareness about them. Just going to the mountains with a more experienced friend you can learn a lot.
What I want to say is that such mass hiking tourism harms not only the visitors of the mountains but the mountains themselves. Therefore we must strive for greater awareness of the aforementioned views. Guides also contribute significantly to such awareness, who are often miserably paid (e.g. at GRS). So the above prices shouldn't surprise us, they are completely fair.
nasmeh
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