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Hribi.net and step-by-step descriptions

Rakar5. 08. 2008 09:27:22

Every time I write a hiking tip or experience description somewhere, I ask myself where the line is … The line of my responsibility. Responsibility for the reader's safety and for spoiling their experience in advance, because with my description it might be too revealed. A clear answer is almost impossible to find, so caution is in place.

What am I aiming at? The description of the pathless approach to Pihavec (through Luknja, past the memorial plaque). It seems to me that this time it went (so typical for the Hribi.net portal) step-by-step describing hiking trails, supported by photo report and possibly also with GPS track, beyond all bounds of good taste. You marked the pathless terrain photo by photo with a red line. I might still understand if you drew the route direction on a global photo taken from afar, say from Plemenic, but like this … That pathless route no longer exists! It's done with it! Forever!

Well, OK, I'll relent once more if it were a completely easy and safe thing. But no, here a gully appears, to which you "hand-led" the masses … And that one, as you say "…quite steep and requires quite some climbing." You forget to say that in the gully, right "around the corner" of the entry jump, an alpine belay is prepared (didn't you notice it?). That would immediately say more about the difficulty, equipment and knowledge needed for safe upward progress (let alone descent the same way, which you don't advise to the uninitiated even with a word).

I won't continue, although I'm in the right mood. I know it's hopeless. I know you'll continue with step-by-step describing even in very demanding pathless terrains. I know you'll attach GPS tracks. (To understand each other, I see nothing particularly controversial in this approach for already marked paths!). I know you won't ask yourselves if you're perhaps carrying some tiny bit of co-responsibility when, say, next to Tinetova plaque another one is placed …

Am I doing injustice? Am I too harsh? Am I perhaps wrong after all? I can only hope!

Regards

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Kriška5. 08. 2008 17:14:36

For decades I occasionally visit our hills and mountains, and I have found many good ideas on this portal too.

As for the responsibility of the description authors - I think they said it at the beginning of the presentation, where there is always the label "easy", "demanding", "very demanding". From there on, let everyone assess their own experiences and abilities themselves, and adults are responsible for their own actions.
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Rakar6. 08. 2008 21:52:09

By the way, what does the undisputed authority among hikers say about this path? Mountaineering Guide Julian Alps (Tine Mihelič), Pihavec, from Luknja. "... The pathless part of the ascent is very demanding, we recommend belaying."

I got lost (despite the guide in hand). Sorry, Kriška, the unbearable ease of understanding (co)responsibility stung me... Completely in the spirit of the times. Everyone for themselves. Influences on others' decisions incur no (co)responsibility! (Until now I thought that decades of mountaineering mean something in looking at the world.)

Actually, I wanted to get into a polemic with the description author (not only him, indirectly also with the portal owners, which I have praised in the past). But it's not even a polemic, it's a reflection! Perhaps such a reflection would be reached by itself if the authors of "guide-like" contributions signed with full names!? Why? Also because it's not just an innocent activity of benevolent help to hikers on their paths, but a serious matter... And commercially - there are ads on Hribi.net portal. Nothing wrong, but responsibility increases!

I admit, perhaps this (such) description stings me a bit more given the listed facts, because it's Tine Mihelič's last path...

It's still possible to fix something.]]>

jprim7. 08. 2008 09:45:43

LP]]>

Kriška7. 08. 2008 14:37:46

It can't be very subjective, given that there are generally accepted and described standards for classifying hiking paths.

Partially subjective within these criteria for sure - of course not only on the internet, but also in all hiking guides, including those written by some undisputed authority.]]>

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Rakar10. 08. 2008 00:21:23

The three-level scale you mention, still in use, tells too little in my opinion. Regardless of the precision of the boundary definition. True, something about tour classification can be read in the introduction of almost every guide, very illustratively and suitably for our (hiking) needs, Andrej Stritar treated this topic in PV 10-2006 (pp. 35-38). There among other things he defines a graphically clear descriptive-value table, with which every path is rated from three categories (difficulty, strenuousness, orientation) and uses a five-level scale for each category. My humble non-expert opinion is that this is an excellent synthesis of what has been seen and used so far! It just needs to be put into practice.

In general, subjectivity despite criteria is built into all human activity. It can of course be felt in guide literature too, only that the undisputed authority (how annoying phrase, right) from this field adds a noble touch to it.

But I still don't know who we are comparing to Tinet Mihelič. I really want the Hribi.net contribution authors to introduce themselves, if not (almost certainly not!), then at least expect some response to my opinion: about their step-by-step description of pathless terrains, about "photo-marking", about (co)responsibility, …

LP
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Rok10. 08. 2008 03:41:24

On Hribi.net we try to present paths as accurately as possible. We also strive to write as objectively as possible, but we are aware that it's not completely possible. If someone has a better description for some path than what's published on Hribi.net, they can send it to us and we'll gladly replace it. Accurate descriptions in my opinion even contribute to easier decision-making when choosing a trip and thus greater safety.
Of course I must also warn all readers that all descriptions are only informative and there may be errors in them.
As for responsibility, I think no guide author has taken it yet.
Regarding the destruction of pathless terrains, I think they are less destroyed by red line on the internet and GPS tracks than by placing cairns.
My name is Rok Lukan and I am the author of the descriptions of the two mentioned pathless terrains.
LP Rok]]>

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morris10. 08. 2008 11:31:35

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Rakar16. 08. 2008 12:50:00

I also believe that you strive to be as objective as possible. Here it can already get complicated... Namely, effort is not always enough or sometimes even too much (again nagging about step-by-step descriptions and "marking" of pathless terrains)! And now I'll link the argumentation to your invitation to authors of better descriptions... That's exactly what I was telling between the lines in this thread first, then almost directly. No need to reinvent hot water. Everything you write has already been written. In many guides (it's visible from descriptions that you use them, although you don't cite sources – but that's a matter of morals...) They were written by people with a lot of mountaineering mileage. That is a necessary (but not necessarily sufficient) condition for objectivity. The same applies to developed sense for the right measure of revealing the hidden. In the words of these experience-soaked authors, constant care for the reader is felt. That's the (co)responsibility I wrote about. Surely no one thought I want the author's "blood", like material (co)responsibility for a possible accident... Come on! But I suggest author reflection and a bit of self-censorship, suggest more warnings. In parallel I am thinking whether today almost anyone can write "guides" (no offense, I don't know your experience, only infer from descriptions) and sometimes even forgets warnings or reduces the tour difficulty... Namely, to understand each other, you are not ordinary forum describers who perhaps casually mention or photo some guiding point on the path, otherwise primarily describe their experience on the tour. No, you don't describe experience – you write only and exclusively about movement towards the goal.

Now in normal circumstances I would conclude with conciliatory and calm words that suit me best. But I can't. The pressure rose again from the "(counter)argument" that red line on photo and GPS track destroy pathless terrains less than cairns. Holy cow, can't it be understood that cairns placed at key points are minimal orientation aid, necessary especially for worse conditions (say fog), while drawn red line on publicly posted photo means the end of that pathless part, not to mention publicly posted GPS track.

Once again I'll emphasize that the controversy of step-by-step describing, "drawing" photo lines and posting GPS tracks applies only to pathless terrains, I have nothing against either for already marked paths - it's even useful and contributes to safety of marked path users. And once again, regarding pathless, this time loudly: EVERYTHING CAN BE FIXED!

LP]]>

viharnik16. 08. 2008 13:33:58

fpetel116. 08. 2008 13:53:28

Personally, with such paths I'm more of a hare and don't go (alone without experienced people) on very demanding pathless terrains if I don't know at least a bit the surrounding hills and difficulties... And I think it's also purely personal responsibility if you go somewhere and kill yourself because someone wrote that the path can be passable etc... You look at the path in front of you, assess if you're up to it (and conditions are OK) and take responsibility for yourself if you fall. But if you're leading someone, I think no responsible guide will lead participants on a path he doesn't know well enough or isn't up to. So the forum is fine and harder approaches can be described too. People just have to assess for themselves if they'll go on the path or rather stay with easier ones.

janez316. 08. 2008 18:36:53

I count among those who move a lot on pathless terrains and who first seek on the forum precise descriptions of movement towards the goal (besides current conditions), which I compare with data from other sources. GPS tracks are thus important and welcome to me, but far from decisive. Above all, they contribute to safety; on pathless terrains even much more than on marked paths. The condition is of course that we know how to handle the device and know the path's difficulty, our abilities and take current conditions into account.

I also count among those who don't jealously keep hidden areas just for themselves. It doesn't seem right to me to try preventing more precise descriptions out of fear of too much visitation. A mere superficial, experiential description with a beautiful photo will get someone on a path sooner than clearly written that to that photo one needs to climb a gully reminiscent of a III.

I don't think there will be excessively more visits to pathless terrain due to GPS tracks. Abandoned trails, chamois paths, steep grass, wobbly holds, exposed unsecured crossings, rare damaged protections, sea of scree, are not a magnet for mass visits. Crowds are where there are huts. When those close, peace reigns in the mountains too. To those few individuals who will later, say due to publicly published GPS track and step-by-step description, reach some goal via pathless (more safely), I also wish it. Despite everything, they had to invest huge effort and knowledge.

And one more thing needs to be said. There's a lot of writing lately about GPS navigation.
The feeling is the same as years ago when mobile phones started accompanying hikes. GPS will become our daily companion, can't avoid it. Even in mountains. But if anywhere not, then in mountains they don't lead you "by the hand". They only indicate turns, their max accuracy is 5m (which can quickly be a lot), cartography for device and computer program is what it is – outdated, in gullies and chimneys quickly lose signal, also signal is worse on cloudy days, depend on batteries. In short, relying only on GPS in mountains is dangerous. In combination with classic map, path description, tips from experts and our knowledge and experience, it will soon become indispensable tool.

Janez

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klavdipo16. 08. 2008 22:21:14

I completely agree with Janez. I also very much love exploring pathless routes and this page helps me a lot in choosing the peaks themselves! Anyway, it depends on each individual to judge how capable they are and thus choose their goal!

Rakar22. 08. 2008 11:51:08

I see that in the meantime, alongside my "theory of caution", some more serious views have accumulated. Most are liked by most. Why not?! Unfortunately all assume that step-by-step descriptions supported by photos and GPS track will be used by people who have enough experience with GPS devices, as well as other necessary basic mountaineering experiences that contribute to safe movement on pathless terrain. For such I'm not excessively worried and I heartily wish them tasting until recently hidden, now "hidden" corners.

I'm worried about the others (and I didn't hide that between the lines), whom such "instant guiding" will almost "by the hand" bring to (for them) dangerous areas, where one wrong decision or five-meter GPS error will mean the line between being and not being! Primarily because of them I write these (unpopular!) warnings. Anyway, it's happening similarly as in alpinism … There too there's no more that proper progression that brings experience, which brings more safety. There too it happens that otherwise well climbing-trained "guys" don't know classic descents, because they simply skipped the lesson of walking marked paths and then pathless terrain. Consequently tragedies happen. It really (hit) me, the popularly populist hint at egoism (hiding pathless terrain) and the logic of the inevitable, saying that GPS era is coming irresistibly anyway and currently only a few people will use the technology and such descriptions of pathless terrain in general. Of course GPS era is coming (and brings good and bad) and although I too hope (and believe) that the number of inexperienced on pathless terrain (due to such publications) won't increase significantly, that doesn't mean that it's not worth holding back the GPS era a bit just because of one life or one unnecessary injury. On the contrary! And if it holds that such revealing of the pathless world will "benefit" only a small number of people, why the hell is such public revealing needed at all? Especially since we know there's no return process (I emphasize for the n-th time, such "revealed" pathless terrain can't be "hidden" again) and that the possibility of exploration will be taken away forever from someone else (admittedly again small number of people). No dilemma, in the previous sentence I'm shamelessly carrying water to my own mill!

Good luck - to authors of guiding "path descriptions" and users!

P.s. I emphasize again, I have nothing against GPS tracks of marked paths – the combination is mostly only beneficial. I also know that within GRS for quite a long period an archive of GPS tracks is being created, which has already been and will be even more useful in the future. In experienced hands, with the right purpose!

Pina22. 08. 2008 14:52:09

The descriptions on this website also help me a lot, it's true though that I also look in the mountaineering guide at the same time. So for now the described path to Pihavec is not for me.

And also this: Tine Mihelič didn't die in an accident, so don't put him among those who rush headlong into mountains. Certainly though many things can happen to anyone who is cautious.

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davorin22. 08. 2008 15:23:36

I haven't been up this path yet, but when I look at the pictures and read the tour description it seems like a PLEASANT AND EASY WALK. And not demanding at all - why wouldn't it be for a tour from Pogacnikov dom side. So, either the tour description and pictures are not good or the difficulty rating is wrong.

geppo22. 08. 2008 16:34:10

With interest I follow the > polemic<, developing on this page.
Hard to side only with one side, because I give right to Rakar as well as to others advocating these descriptions. I myself sometimes happily set off on a path that wasn't marked, which usually fully occupies you and adds adrenaline. I always in company of fellow hiker (also experienced) - never alone!!
Personally I think that (and should) pathless terrain be used only by very experienced hikers!
Drawing a line for whom to describe these pathless terrain and mark them with GPS is hard.
Personally I think it's right that there are also records and markings and pictorial material of paths not drawn in usual mountaineering maps next to warning that description is intended only for experienced hikers!
Descriptions of these paths will appear anyway, if not on this portal then on another (path describers are already snubbing) and wishes for founding new internet portals - MOUNTAINEERING.
So, descriptions of marked and unmarked paths will inevitably appear!!
I haven't used GPS description yet for visit and movement on pathless terrain - maybe it's more accurate than path >description<??
We'll see what else comes out of this...
Regards

nevi22. 08. 2008 19:57:31

I too would have a hard time siding with one or the other side in this polemic. Everyone is right in their own way. But I have one tiny argument against popularizing walking off-trail - intrusion into animals' space. I fully understand the feelings when walking on paths where not everyone can go, but I'm convinced there are plenty of marked paths. Animals get used to them, but if we walk where they're not used to us, we'll probably scare them.

viharnik22. 08. 2008 21:19:54

I personally am also not a supporter of GPS devices, because my intuition doesn't trust such an important part (tracking in mountains) to some device, which first - unusable due to terrain signal interference, second - in mountainous areas larger deviations occur, third - is just an electronic instrument (possible failures). For me better use of ordinary magnetic compass. Not saying GPS for desert foxes and steppe prairies or Eskimo areas... For me the nicest is direct contact with nature. There senses awaken, which in civilized man are already slightly numbed. zavijanje z očmi

Rok.

onsight22. 08. 2008 22:24:26

I apologize in advance to all whom my writing will hurt in any way.
I won't copy or quote individual sections of your writings, because it would take too much space,... let it take at least its own if found somewhere. My opinion about this website...to creators, all who contribute to content in any way...all praise for the effort. What your intentions are...maybe lure as many stupid Sunday hikers to dangerous pathless routes and kill them that way or something similar, maybe scare all animals in our mountains, for those purposes I don't know nor want to know. Don't interest me. What counts is only that you tackled work in a field that interests you, makes you happy, you enjoy it and gladly share it with others too. And consequently every such work drags along a bunch of "problems", different reactions, envy, false awareness and enlightenment. Who cares for animals up there in mountains? If those warning about it in upper lines, then they themselves wouldn't crawl where no path is. But no...they can walk pathless, are part of nature obviously...all others can't. Massiveness? Yes...in my opinion too. Just because I read that somewhere pathless exists,...I'll go there next Sunday right away, regardless that I'm just Sunday hiker for whom some "zajl" is excess adrenaline experience. Just because this pathless is described here. What nonsense. Such ranting belongs to the same rank as philosophizing how shining pitons in alpinistic routes disturb animals in mountains, those same "greenpeace"-ers happily photograph themselves on summits leaning on crosses without a hint of disgust, similar to that above Okresljem shining like a mirror. But no...that doesn't disturb. Why not? God knows...he surely nasmeh

. I'm climber myself, little alpinist at heart and honestly said...I like going to mountains for a bunch of reasons and consequently "get on my nerves" crowds of hikers and noise inevitably coming with them. And bunch of accidents, even fatal... And yet...who am I to elevate myself above them by labeling others as "hiker crowd" and no longer be just ordinary "Sunday gravel guy"? Who am I and who are you to have only you and handful of chosen all right to mountains? As if you forgot that you too not long ago uncertainly stepped first on worn paths, only later (probably with some experienced) discovered more hidden corners? It bothers you that you had to effort more for it yourself, now they have everything on platter, like this via web? Hey...reconcile...anyway years ago you probably stood in line at bank too, now pay bills via Click on Sunday morning before putting gojzars in backpack and rushing to lean on nearest cross. And you don't get more gray hairs because of it. Quite fine, isn't it?
Will there be more dead in mountains because of it? There will be more...but I strongly doubt because of this website and such and other guides. Moral responsibility of path description writers? That's one of the better ones I've read...haha. If anything true...it's true that probably some accident less. I have quite diverse circle of people who amateurishly go to mountains and sometimes talk about it together, browse trips on page...I've already several times heard words "Ojej, good I looked at path photos and description here, we thought next time this tour, now I see it's more demanding than I imagined..." and similar. Probably someone will even go on some tour because description and photos will enthuse him...yeah. If I ever made or drilled some route to climb...definitely not for myself. If I ever climbed some wonderful route somewhere, walked nice tour...I gladly shared it with all who had five minutes and listened to me with all zeal. But that's me...probably someone once wrongly introduced and taught me. All moralists who theatrically condemn work on this page...you yourselves well know from what impulse you do it. Far from great care for fellow humans and animal world, which you yourselves "piss on" with your presence like anyone else.

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Rakar23. 08. 2008 09:59:42

Onsight, excellently written! Also theatrical. nasmeh

But I still have to add something, because it stands out a bit too much. Namely, just one small, completely specific part of the work on this website was "condemned". Otherwise, a lot of work has been done on hribi.net, which I'm not claiming for the first time. I don't want to delve into the reasons why someone takes on such work!

Thanks to all who have, and to those who might still discuss this topic. My purpose has already been more than achieved. And no hard feelings if I've excessively raised someone's pressure!

Regards

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Hribi.net and step-by-step descriptions