Navigation in the mountains then and now
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| ZeK8. 11. 2017 20:38:31 |
That button phone is more practical? Hello?!
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I wrote that in the sense of using it for an emergency call.
pressing buttons blindly is easier than "swiping" blindly.
this "better practicality" applies only in the case of a possible emergency call.
the other thing, of course, is if you use the phone in the mountains for something else.
since I don't use it for anything else, for me it's better to have the one with buttons in the mountains.
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| bumslpepe8. 11. 2017 20:41:01 |
I can't imagine how to orient myself with a paper map and compass in fog on snowy terrain (possibly at night).
With a smartphone it's very easy. For me the phone is an important safety tool; indispensable like ice axe and crampons. Over the last six years that I've been using GPS navigation, no phone has failed me. Of course, you need to ensure the battery is full when going on a tour. You need to carry it on your body (to keep it warm). In areas with poor GSM signal or no GSM signal, switch it to airplane mode.
The paper map I usually look at before or after the tour.
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| dragon8. 11. 2017 21:24:34 |
I'm quite conservative too and use only classic maps. To stare into phones and other devices all the time even in mountains! That's exactly why I go up there, to get away from all these gadgets.
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| Bojan_A8. 11. 2017 22:58:44 |
@bumslpepe
Totally agree. I've been using it only three years, before I used handheld GPS receiver, which is much less usable than mobile.
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| rajko00289. 11. 2017 07:02:13 |
@Bojan A - why do you think handheld GPS is less usable (has better reception, better/longer autonomy, if battery runs out you have spare in backpack, receiver can hang anywhere ...) If you use mobile for navigation batteries drain fast - maybe have power bank which is heavy, reception is there or isn't, most have no voice guidance, if rain or snow must protect it - consequence no reception, can't hear it, higher battery use, hard to navigate with wet fingers on screen, .... . Of course there are pluses too - single device, view of surrounding peaks (2D and 3D), in case of accident easier to find you .... . I'm seriously considering Garmin GPSmap 64S - of course open to all suggestions.
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| sla9. 11. 2017 07:52:23 |
Summary: we old ones prefer the good old paper navigation, you young ones slide with slippery electronic gadgets 
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| Bojan_A9. 11. 2017 08:47:14 |
Uh, tons of reasons:
1) handheld receiver has way fewer functions. 2) Maps are hard to get or are paid. 3) Maps suck and get nicely updated occasionally. I travel a lot around the world. Where the hell do I get free maps for example for Japan for my old handheld GPS receiver? 4) Handheld receiver has no internet. 5) Old receiver is much heavier than mobile. 6) Why carry two devices to the hills at all if I can have just one. 7) Handheld GPS usually has crappy software
Minuses
1) Waterproofness. Otherwise I always carried a PVC bag for diving with which the phone is usable even then
2) No powerbank no go
3) handheld GPS has better antenna.
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| piotr9. 11. 2017 09:25:51 |
Well the difference is clear, one thing are dedicated GPS navigators (Garmin,Magellan..), which use cartography developed just for them. Since they are vector, the track recording is much more accurate than with rasters, which "smart" phones offer more or less for free.
Of course their universality is practical, even indispensable, but we must take into account their limitations. E.g. whoever wants to make some higher quality photo record, just uses another camera with larger optical range, light strength, sensor...
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| ljubitelj gora9. 11. 2017 11:13:52 |
For Bojan and explanation: app at the following link: http://www.sports-tracker.com/ Catches 8-9 satellites, after walking 200m on grass the phone shows 1km and max speed 35km/h, didn't know I was that fast  So in mountains it's interesting, on Viševnik it shows you're somewhere else say 30m away. If from somewhere in forest even 200m off.
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| ZeK9. 11. 2017 12:16:05 |
I can't imagine how one could orient with paper map and compass in fog on snowy terrain (possibly at night)
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snow/fog/night: wait for improvement/bivouacking.
otherwise look with flashlight on paper map + compass has same effect as looking at smartphone. it's true that smartphone shows on e-map where you are. even truer is that this data is not accurate and can thus do more harm than good in such conditions.
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| rajko00289. 11. 2017 12:55:18 |
@ZeK- with a map and compass it's a mission impossible to determine the location at night, in fog and snow - sometimes bivouacking is not possible either and then GPS helps.
GPS on a mobile gives you an accuracy of 15m in a circle.
A dedicated GPS can achieve up to 0.1m (provided it can receive signals also from Russian, Chinese (soon also European) and not only American satellites).
So I think if you have GPS and a map it's enough for everyone - GPS shows the direction which you check on the map in demanding situations. If you make a route at home already, GPS warns you that you went astray and leads you on the planned path (if you have 1500€ or more spare and buy a pro GPS then it tells you the terrain ahead is impassable and you're only 1 cm off the planned point).
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| Zebdi9. 11. 2017 13:37:05 |
@rajko00028: what do I know; when we still participated in night orienteering competitions, map and compass were enough for us.
If we're talking about demanding mountain pathless terrain, I usually don't venture into unknown terrain at night or in conditions that would hinder or prevent orientation.
And also - last time someone from our group had GPS, it "moved" us during the break by 300m vertically and approx 400m horizontally. With such accuracy even GPS is no guarantee for a safe return...
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| 5Xum9. 11. 2017 14:02:56 |
@Zebdi
True, map and compass are basically enough. Horse cart is basically enough to travel from Ljubljana to Peking, but that doesn't mean there's no more comfortable and faster option.
GPS that moves a person 300 meters during a break is just a crappy GPS, or the person doesn't know how to read it. But that's not an argument against GPS in general - my car broke down yesterday too, but that's probably not an argument to go back to donkey carts.
A good phone GPS has no problems constantly holding the location at least 10 meters accurately. Yes, sometimes it loses signal, and when catching it back, it doesn't hit first time. But if left nicely alone for a minute, it will eventually hit the location "spot on". There are no serious limitations here (in the sense that it doesn't catch far from transmitters), because the signal comes directly from orbit.
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| dprapr9. 11. 2017 15:55:59 |
When I read these comments, I get the feeling that without these devices it's no longer possible to go to mountains, or in this case only with horse cart.
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| rajko00289. 11. 2017 16:06:16 |
@Zebdi Also when I was still competing in orienteering we had maps and compasses, but many teams got lost, when start was in Črnuče and finish on Rašica one team despite map and compass ended up on Mengeški hrib. As I wrote already-if you want to be 100% you have GPS+map, when I get Garmin 645S (which supposedly works OK even in biggest screes and thickets and accurate to meter) I'll gladly take you on some pathless for demo.
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| palček plezalček9. 11. 2017 16:23:25 |
Even if I had 1500 euros that I didn't know where to stick them, I wouldn't buy a GPS, even if the manufacturer guarantees that my position will be recorded to the centimeter accurately and the device will warn me about impassable terrain. What would it warn me about in the wall/route? Maybe where to find the next hold?
Sometimes I use an app that draws the path, but more to see later where and how long I was wandering.
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| miri9. 11. 2017 17:04:32 |
We, the older ones, use our head for memories. There it will stay, whatever will be. The rest on photos. Someday everything useless. So enjoy, wherever we are, even on the wrong little path.
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| lubadar9. 11. 2017 18:17:17 |
My memory card reaches far into the previous century, but combined with paper map, it has still brought me safely to the goal
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| sAleska9. 11. 2017 20:58:11 |
For me that's the biggest challenge and I immensely enjoy finding my way orientation-wise completely without all these devices and (mostly) without map (though I carry it). In 40 years of my solitary pathless wanderings it went wrong only once and I bivouacked forcibly - and that turned out to be a special experience. With mileage experience accumulates and you hit directions, passages etc. "spot on".
Otherwise they say if you don't know you're lost, everything's fine.
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