Photo jaunt in the mountains
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| ruševec2. 11. 2012 12:51:31 |
Čebelca, this one in your pictures is really already a granddad. Roughly and quickly, he's close to 10 years old. Really nice billy.
Otherwise, mostly everyone posts only photos of ibex, of course when you can approach them to just 10m or less. There are few photos of chamois, because they are normally shy like all ungulates. Chamois are easiest to photograph where they've gotten somewhat used to hiking trails. And of course younger individuals are much more curious and inexperienced than old nanny goats leaders who quickly drive the whole herd to flight. Chamois are not only plentiful in the Julians, also above Kamniška Bistrica there are areas where they are regular, and Košuta, Begunjščica all the way to Stol in the Karavanks. Most chamois on one trip I saw in Krnica on the path to Špik via Lipnica. Two herds, each about 20 individuals.
Ibex inhabit areas where they were reintroduced about 100 years ago. One colony is in the Kamnik-Savinja Alps. They prefer to stay between Grintovec and Brana (Veliki and Mali Podi, Skuta, Rinke, Turska gora and Brana). Second colony is the result of introduction in the hunting area of LD Bovec and inhabits Bavšica and the peaks of Loška stena. The third and largest colony of ibex is in the broader Kriške Pode area. They like southern sunny slopes best: Stenar, Sovatna, Bovški Gamsovec, Pihovec. But this colony has spatially expanded also into the Triglav group. So you meet them on Tominšek's, over Plemenice, around Stanic's hut and even to Hribarice and Prehodavci. Unlike chamois, ibex never descend below the forest line throughout the year, mostly in summer not even below 2000m. Meanwhile chamois we meet in forest ravines and cliffs at 600m. But the best for chamois is the belt from forest to tree line 1400-1900m.
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| cebelca2. 11. 2012 13:04:43 |
Ruševec, then there will be two "grandpas", because it's not the same one. 
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| ruševec2. 11. 2012 22:31:56 |
Čebelica, both are close to 10 years and really extremely nice billies. We rarely meet such. Ajda, the billy in your photos is younger than those two. You see it from the face, no excessive gray, no pronounced gray patches under the eyes. And from the horns I counted about 8 years somehow. And also official categorization of ibex by age... Ibex billy should be middle-aged and at peak strength between 5 and 9 years. After 10 years completed age one can say he's old. Attaching photos by age.
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| ruševec2. 11. 2012 22:54:47 |
And let's not forget the female gender either. Ibex females by age.
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| ajda3. 11. 2012 15:19:25 |
Thanks for the reply ruševec. I'm glad the ibex is at the peak of its powers, that means it'll rule the slopes of Rjavina for a long time 
Distinguishing ibex by sex is quite easy, but with chamois I have no idea. If a young one is jumping around an adult chamois it's definitely a female. Male chamois have thicker and more hook-shaped horns than females, but I never notice the difference. Seems to me they all have the same horns  
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| ruševec4. 11. 2012 16:18:35 |
Ajda you know mountain animals quite well. With ibex the difference between sexes is obvious. Already in 2-year-old animals there's a strong difference in horn thickness, later of course also in length. Female has 20-30 cm, male can exceed 1 m.
With chamois there's no such obvious difference neither in girth nor in height of horns. In most cases 70-80% of individuals can be distinguished by horn curvature. Males more hook-shaped, females less curved. But there are individuals where sex can't actually be determined just by horn curvature because they're in between. Then you need to look at horn thickness, which is usually larger in males, and horn height, which looks higher in females due to thin horns. Next sign is overall body build. Males are on average at least 5 kg heavier than females. The most reliable sign is the social status of the individual. If a chamois is in a herd with young ones and is adult, it's almost certainly a female. Females form herds with young, one-year-old and two-year-old chamois. But when we encounter a single chamois with none around far away, it's very likely a male, as adult males are loners. In winter coat males are given away by the "chamois mane or chamois tuft" distinct high fur along the back and lumbar area all the way to the tail. The most difficult individuals to determine sex are 1 and 2 year old chamois, which are often still in the herd with females.
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| ajda4. 11. 2012 18:45:45 |
Ruševec, many thanks for such a pleasant and detailed explanation.
Best regards.
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| cebelca4. 11. 2012 18:55:12 |
I join the praise. But now I'm a bit proud of "my" two, if you say it's rare to meet such.
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| peter24. 11. 2012 19:14:31 |
@ruševec:
Nice explanation. I'm interested in where ibex end up? To be more precise; I'm wondering if you or anyone has ever found the horns of a dead old ibex and where (in a gully, avalanche, ...)? Namely, it's not hard to find a dead chamois, I've even found a female ibex, but never an adult ibex.
Best regards and thanks in advance for the answer.
Peter S.
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| skalaš704. 11. 2012 19:50:22 |
I, on the way from Planika to Triglav, also met a chamois in a bit different colors and dimensions.
And nice greetings.
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| ajda4. 11. 2012 19:59:41 |
In TNP it's safe, let the taxman hunt there where chamois hunting is allowed. How good
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| ruševec4. 11. 2012 21:28:32 |
Peter 2 first I have to correct you a bit. Deer (Cervidae) have antlers. Antlers are bony formations that fall off and grow new every year. Ibex, chamois and mouflon (Bovidae) have horns. Horns are hollow keratinous formations that grow annually and don't fall off. That's why the age of the individual can be precisely determined from horns.
Where do ibex end up? In areas where ibex hunting is carried out: LPN Kozorog Kamnik, LD Bovec and LD Log pod Mangrtom shoot some individuals every year. They also record all dead ones as loss. So they collect the horns and skull. In LPN Triglav or in the central TNP area or now in the 1st protection zone no hunting is done, TNP rangers who are mostly also hunting wardens collect all dead individuals too.
And something that will seem strange to you, article 5 of the law on game and hunting is clear: Hunting is searching, observing, stalking, luring and waiting for game with the aim to catch game or live trap game and COLLECTION OF GAME OR ITS PARTS! Hunting can be carried out exclusively and only by the manager of the hunting ground or its member. Any collection of game parts by non-hunters is thus a misdemeanor, for which the competent inspector can impose a fine. TNP rangers in practice issue a warning and take away the game part.
And just at the end. About 2-3 years ago hikers from the direction of Kriške pode to Aljažev dom in a broader sense brought an ibex head. TNP ranger took it over.
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| ruševec4. 11. 2012 21:41:49 |
And to ajda's claim that chamois is safe in TNP... In TNP the hunting regime is as follows: In all hunting grounds of hunting societies: Log pod Mangrtom, Bovec, Soča, Čezsoča, Drežnica, Smast, Tolmin, Podbrdo, Stara Fužina, Bohinjska Bistrica and LPN Prodi-Razor hunting for all game is carried out just like everywhere else in Slovenia. The Upper Carniolan side of the Julians and part of Trenta fall under LPN Triglav managed by TNP itself. In the 3rd protection zone hunting is carried out more or less exactly the same as everywhere: (Pokljuka, Mežaklja), exactly how in the 2nd protection zone unfortunately I don't know (but definitely no hunting of healthy individuals there), in the 1st protection zone hunting really isn't carried out. That's why the 1st and 2nd protection zones are also the main hotspot of chamois scabies disease in Slovenia.
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| jusuf4. 11. 2012 23:12:29 |
Ruševec, you're obviously an expert. I'm curious how many years you'd estimate for this chamois that lives under Debelim vrhom.
LPP
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| Karletto5. 11. 2012 09:07:37 |
Let's say he's as old as our country, maybe even a couple years younger... let's see how much I missed.
Ruševec?
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| urbancek5. 11. 2012 09:27:00 |
I also think he's not among the oldest... Seems to me the older ones have a "goatee" and are somehow more stocky, heavy and move slowly...
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| tinky5. 11. 2012 15:57:19 |
we also spot foxes in the mountains
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| ruševec5. 11. 2012 18:52:15 |
Tinky the fox or vixen is a nice addition to the topic. Super!
Jusuf your chamois posed nicely on the third pic and you can count the rings from year 4 on. After multiple counts I'm more for 10 than 9 years. Definitely older chamois.
Karletto you missed by 11 years. Chamois lifespan up to 15 years. But in harsh mountain conditions harsh winter can take many old ones. Interestingly chamois reach 18-20 years. Especially females.
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