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| pipi6. 03. 2010 12:44:46 |
Does the warden have any legal basis for his action? To me it sounds more like the self-will of some climbers. Anyway, we know what happened at Stari vrh in the last two years.... They should take care of order among themselves!
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| viharnik6. 03. 2010 13:14:50 |
Janik, I think the warden behaved completely inappropriately towards you and that on a professionally unfounded basis. You probably walked along the edge of the ski slope on touring skis and didn't cause any damage to the ski piste, let alone to the operators of Stari vrh. In the worst case, the warden could charge you only for the parking spot and nothing else, since you walked up. I think that some "touristic" workers still lack a lot for guests to return happily to friendly, good-hearted people.
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| Klin6. 03. 2010 13:57:44 |
So, if I buy a one-way ticket, I can go on foot on the ski slope, otherwise not
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| janik6. 03. 2010 15:08:04 |
I don't know about the legal basis, nor if it's true that with a one-way ticket you can walk on the ski slope, I've sent a more detailed description of the incident and some questions to the director of Stari vrh. If I don't get answers, I'll try to turn to A kanal on the Svet show for help.
It's not about money, but about the illogical explanation of the "warden" from the parking lot, which was based on safety. At the entrance to the ski area there is a sign prohibiting skiing when it's not operating, adding that it also applies to touring skiers, but nowhere is walking or any other movement on the terrain prohibited when the lifts are not running. When can moving up the ski slope be safer than early morning when there are no skiers yet and it's really impossible for a collision or any other accident to happen. That's what happens when you put a yellow vest with "warden" on an incompetent person and then he becomes the boss.
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| ugn6. 03. 2010 16:16:24 |
why did you let him? couldn't you ignore him and drive away?
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| vikon8. 03. 2010 22:49:23 |
janik, I really don't know what's unclear to you and those like you. If the sign says SKI AREA CLOSED from 16 to 19 and from 22 to 9, you shouldn't move around the ski area. It doesn't matter with what or whom. Today I visited the ski area myself and checked the matter. All signs are very clearly written; you just need to read them. No one chased me during operating hours.
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| pipi9. 03. 2010 11:37:45 |
I could somehow understand if the ski resort was private property, but it's not; the user just manages it. Similar things happen elsewhere (Zelenica). But I get it, the manager wants the ski resort trampled at opening and not "skied down" by tour skiers. These things, along with many others, unfortunately are not settled in our country!
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| mariborcan9. 03. 2010 12:08:34 |
Well, it's really a shame... I recommend putting it in the media; they'll probably worry quickly if they get a bad reputation.
As for closures and signs... probably you could insist on not buying the ticket, let them call the police and report you if they think they're right. On whose side the law is here, actually unfortunately I don't know... movement in the natural environment they can't just ban like that, especially if not landowners. Some restrictions probably can exist to ensure safety on the ski area... but when would ascending next to the ski area be safer than when it's closed?!?
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| tol9. 03. 2010 12:27:32 |
A bit of research and fun reading:
Article 3 of the Ski Area Safety Act says: > (activities on the ski area)
(1) On the ski area only skiing is allowed. Other sports activities or other activities within the ski area are allowed only with the consent of the ski area manager and on areas that must be completely separate from the ski runs and specially marked and secured.
(2) For areas designated for other sports activities or other activities within the ski area, the provisions of this act apply mutatis mutandis unless otherwise specified by special regulations.<
Article 5 of the act among others states > (safety measures on the ski area) > warning and information signs, prohibition and obligation signs where necessary<
Article 7 says >
(manager's duty)
During operation of the ski area the manager must regularly maintain protective equipment and warning and information signs, prohibition signs and obligation signs on the ski area and implement measures from the first paragraph of Article 5 of this act and other measures specified by this act and the operating permit.
<
Article 11 of the act says (most direct for your case) > (operation of ski areas in different conditions)
(1) The ski area may operate only during the day and in weather conditions ensuring skier safety.
(2) The ski area may also operate at night if properly arranged and lit and if such operation is specified in the operating permit.
(3) The operating time of the ski area is usually the same as the operating time of the lifts. Outside operating hours access to the ski area is allowed only to employees of the ski area manager and facilities on the ski area and in cases permitted by the ski area manager.
Article 24 of the act says > (1) Skiers and other persons must comply with the rules and safety instructions or conduct on the ski area, warning and information signs, prohibition signs and obligation signs and orders, instructions and warnings of supervisors.
This same article among others says also > 3) A skier must not:
– ski when the ski area or part of the ski area is closed;
and also > (5) Another person must not:
– stay or perform other sports activity or other activity on ski runs;
Article 27
(rights and duties of supervisors)
The supervisor has the following rights and duties:
– issue warnings, orders and instructions in accordance with this act;
– as a misdemeanour authority issue a payment order to persons caught committing an offence under Article 35 of this act, except under the seventh indent of paragraph 3 of Article 24 of this act;
– prevent skiers from dangerous skiing and other dangerous or harmful acts endangering or causing danger to other participants on the ski area;
– prevent or prohibit skiing with deficient or faulty equipment and prevent skiing by skiers who do not comply with his warning, order or instruction and in case of non-compliance notify the police;
– regarding the conduct of skiers suspected of skiing under the influence of alcohol, prohibited drugs or psychoactive medicines, notify the police;
– regulate the movement of persons at entry to the ski area and exit from it and at entry to the lift facility and exit from it;
– establish the identity of accident participants on the ski area and offenders under this act;
– eliminate deficiencies on the ski area or notify the manager thereof;
– conduct accident inspection and write a report with sketch and photo;
– in case of accident with serious bodily injury or death, secure and mark the scene, notify rescuers and provide first aid until rescuers arrive, secure traces of the accident, notify police, assist police in site inspection, ensure closest relatives are informed about the accident, ensure equipment and other property of the injured is handed to owner, relatives or authorised person;
– inform rescue service and manager about dangers and accidents on the ski area.
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| tol9. 03. 2010 12:33:21 |
So in short:
the ski area manager can put up prohibition and obligation signs!
Skiing on the ski area when it is closed is already prohibited by law. Likewise other activities on the ski area, which includes hiking. The supervisor can fine you because he has legal basis.
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| mariborcan9. 03. 2010 12:52:02 |
Yes, but we need to distinguish between supervisor and attendant. I think any ordinary attendant who, say, directs traffic in the parking lot isn't automatically a supervisor who can fine you. Well, suppose the one who "fined" janik was a real supervisor. I assume, as a misdemeanour authority, he should write a report and issue a proper payment order, not punish someone by simply forcing them to buy a ticket.
I think we should pay more attention to such laws that in the name of "safety" limit our freedoms but pass them casually. Meanwhile the public debates a lot about other things, say psyches of some so-called famous people who have no influence on average citizen (or tour skier).
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| tol9. 03. 2010 12:59:52 |
I think buying the ticket was much cheaper than the fine he could get.
And in the first post he wrote "Turizem smo ljudje pa ne povsod" "We are tourism people but not everywhere"
What does Stari vrh ski slope get from a tour skier? If not going for coffee or juice, nothing at all...
Rules are there to be followed. Can you imagine ratraking the slope, driving slalom between tour skiers and hikers?
And those "threats" with submitting to Svet on channel A are really off. Is the show really so bad that they'd deal with "forcing" ticket purchase for ignoring signs and law?
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| stefanb9. 03. 2010 13:11:18 |
The question is only if the supervisor had legal basis for forced ticket purchase. But that's another story, similar to how fishing wardens use it for poachers. Quick option: buy three tickets; longer and more expensive: court.
Similar story I experienced recently at Zelenica and must admit the liftie was right in some parts, but mainly the performance and "mental" state of the "boss" was impossible. For me nothing was needed, or it cost me nothing. But there was an interesting conclusion of the debate, namely that he already knows that I'll ski in the evening on the freshly groomed slope (my intentions were quite different).
And here I see the core of the problem. Slopes near or on tour ski routes often suffer night visits or returns from tours, whose result is razed slopes that were groomed in the evening. And must admit I wouldn't like someone "for free" destroying my previous work, not to mention the disappointment of skiers who come in the morning to use mirrored slopes.
Here the slope manager has full legal basis to fine us. How, is another matter. It's on us tour skiers to avoid using the slope (skiing) outside operating hours. But in this direction (unofficial info) an amendment to the legislation is being prepared that will clarify these things even more.
It is true that some slopes see tour skiers as a market opportunity and additional source of income (at least some euro surely stays in the hut by the slope), others see them as a necessary evil. Positive example of excellent relationship or coexistence on the slope shows Rudno polje at Pokljuka. That's my experience.
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| ugn9. 03. 2010 13:11:34 |
That will hold, yeah, that it's prohibited.
But surely the attendant has no authority to punish a person who commits an offence by forcing ticket purchase, that's why I say you could resist that.
Referring to tourism here is out of place - recreational who spends nothing isn't a tourist.
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| stefanb9. 03. 2010 13:37:02 |
But he has authority to call the policeman. Then the tariff is a bit different.
I myself before and right after the event at Zelenica thought I had more right than I actually had. And about that my son-in-law instructed me  , who is police supervisor on the slope.
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| mariborcan9. 03. 2010 13:38:38 |
Regarding tourism: it's a narrow view that there is no benefit from tour skiers; many probably treat themselves to a drink in the nearby inn, not everyone for sure, some yes. OK, if now say someone might come for several days and use accommodation, in the case of Stari vrh surely too far, for other slope maybe not. Another thing is reputation. The slope probably shouldn't be interested in appearing in the media (even just a web forum) linked to persecuting tour skiers. Because many of them are not only tour skiers but occasionally go skiing on the slope too (I mean buying a ticket). All concerns tol mentioned re safety and grooming we can transfer, say, to MB Pohorje, but here no problems with chasing hikers and tour skiers so far (at least as far as I know). And I know that if they chased me on tourskis I'd surely avoid visiting Pohorje as regular skier, which I do several times per season for sure.
As for destroying freshly groomed slopes it's a bit like that... not so many tour skiers at that time to seriously destroy slope, just ratrak tracks not so nicely visible anymore. Which happens anyway in less than an hour after opening.
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| mariborcan9. 03. 2010 13:42:19 |
stefanb, that's why I'm saying it's actually very sad that such laws, which incidentally ban this and that and put us in violations, all in the name of "safety" of course, are passed just like that in the background, while we publicly debate various other really unimportant things. They're written by some quasi "experts" or whoever I know. But that's how it is with us...
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| stefanb9. 03. 2010 14:02:26 |
In most laws the broader public isn't included anyway. Then it's what it is, main thing to protect certain interests.
It is true though that certain bans exist abroad too, especially regarding movement on and around ski areas. And fines are harsh.
And ski resorts where they chase us suspiciously and rudely or treat us like scum, we avoid with family even as regular skiers. Better to leave a Euro where I know I'm welcome, whatever kind of skier.
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| ugn9. 03. 2010 14:27:00 |
Including the broader public in adopting such laws would be pointless - they'd immediately abolish all bans and fines. Walking on ski area at night is generally dangerous because that's when groomers work and an accident could happen so it's right it's banned. From the ski area operator's view, touring skiers are actually a nuisance - daytime they obstruct "paying" skiers, at night they obstruct work or pose danger to workers - especially true for e.g. Zelenica, where I think there are already more touring skiers than regular ones, so I think the lifties' attitude there is still relatively tolerant - at least such rudeness as forcing a touring skier going up in the morning (I think about 100 per day on weekends) to buy a ticket, they haven't done there as far as I know. Plus a one-way ticket there costs only 5 eur - and it takes you to high alpine terrain, not Stari vrh - through bushes.
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