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| solist9. 03. 2010 14:59:33 |
Let me throw in some "wise" words too. I used to be quite an active skier but the materialistic syndrome of ski resorts (and everything else) started to bug me and I hung up my skis and switched to cross-country or hiking.
Poetry. You go where your heart desires, as far as possible from the mad world and groomed trails... So touring skiers stay true to the essence of (touring) this activity and ski where those various supervisors can't chase you because they can't even get there anyway - no road to drive up in a warm car and play authority.
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| bike10. 03. 2010 16:11:33 |
Maybe a bit off topic or not. I don't ski but hike a lot in mountains and some marked trails go across ski areas too. And it happened to me that a skier yelled at me on Črni vrh ski area when I was walking right by the fence (marked trail to Blegoš), because it was my first time there I just followed the marks. Shouldn't the ski area manager arrange that too, to mark where hikers can go. I'm talking about MARKED route.
But I fully agree with Solist - as far from the mad world as possible....
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| vikon11. 03. 2010 09:44:50 |
janik in your post you stated untruths. You walked in the middle of the lower parallel slope not at the edge for which there are probably pictures. As one of the employees told me you also prevented normal bus parking with your vehicle.
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| vikon11. 03. 2010 09:53:11 |
The operating time of the ski area is as a rule equal to the operating time of the lift facilities. Outside operating hours, access to the ski area is allowed only to employees of the ski area operator and facilities on the ski area and in cases permitted by the ski area manager.
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| pipi11. 03. 2010 10:59:53 |
Vikon, if I understand correctly there is a difference between operator and landowner (on most ski areas owners are farmers?). One thinks that free movement in nature is not yet prohibited here!? (forests, pastures-as long as no damage)
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| tol11. 03. 2010 11:08:54 |
Are we illiterate?
Read > http://www.uradni-list.si/1/objava.jsp?urlid=20063&stevilka=66
Can I on Krvavec on a sunny Sunday mid-winter, in the middle of the Zvoh slope, dig a hole and look for truffles?
The law defines ski area as > 2. Ski area is an arranged, marked, secured and supervised skiing area permanently intended for skiing consisting of arranged ski slopes, access and exit paths to ski slopes, ski paths connecting individual slopes, ski paths to the valley marked and secured by the ski area operator, areas for other sports or activities and other arranged areas within the ski area.<
The ski area is managed by the operator! What the operator can and cannot do, read in the law!
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| tol11. 03. 2010 11:11:49 |
I think the term manager tells you> that he is not the owner of the land but partial authority to manage the land has been transferred to him.
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| tol11. 03. 2010 11:17:18 |
Well, we can close the topic!
We found out that the "offender" was actually in violation of the law and all complaints against STC Stari Vrh are irrelevant.
He paid the ticket, the fine could have been higher.
Skiing, walking,... on the ski slope when it is closed is prohibited, unless the manager decides otherwise.
What else bothers you?
Let's leave the hribi.net site so we can read some more useful information and not complaints "how I broke the law, but I don't know it and had to buy a one-way ticket for 10 EUR"
Best regards
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| mariborcan11. 03. 2010 12:17:42 |
@ugn:
If by involving the wider public in adopting such laws we eliminated bans and fines, is there anything wrong with that? That's democracy. If it then turned out there were too many accidents or something, public opinion would probably change too.
@solist:
Stari Vrh and similar is probably just training for most touring skiers on days when there's no time or conditions to escape civilization.
@tol:
We can't just conclude like that. Often the law is one thing, practice another. But let's stick to laws. Just like janik, the ski resort representative was also in violation. I doubt the law provides that an inspector in the role of a misdemeanor authority can impose mandatory ticket purchase as a penalty. If he was even a real inspector, quite possible he was just a regular warden with no such powers. Or the inspector didn't want to bother with paperwork probably associated with issuing a fine. I agree the fine would likely be higher than the ticket price, but then we can also ask what danger janik was causing by walking on the closed ski slope (I mean real danger, not "what IF something happened there"). Such considerations are aside if we want to stick to the law. And forcing ticket purchase is probably not in accordance with it. After all, if the inspector (suppose he was) issued janik an official misdemeanor notice and payment order, neither he nor we here would need to figure out what the law is and if someone was in violation or not.
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| tol11. 03. 2010 12:30:39 |
What actual danger do you cause if at 2:13 AM you run a red light at an intersection?
Then imagine if everyone thinks like that? Pedestrians walk across red lights, drivers speed through intersections on red etc...
Where is the line of actual danger creation?
Personally, it really gets on my nerves if someone drives a car 1.5 meters behind my ass..
The driver behind me thinks he's controlling the "situation"...
Unfortunately we are such that we need restrictions, anarchy in any field has never proven good.
Pohorje was mentioned, where no one chases touring skiers and cyclists. OK, but Pohorje is big.
Imagine after heavy snowfall in the mountains all touring skiers and hikers from Poljane and Selška valleys + Škofja Loka, Ljubljana go for "training" to Stari Vrh ski slope? Then groom the slope amidst that crowd.
True, one individual doesn't cause much problem or danger. But if there's no order from the start, things quickly get out of control. And then you get a whole bunch of uncontrolled touring skiers and pedestrians.
See one mouse around the house? And of course since it's one you don't chase it etc... in two months you'll have a whole nest of mice around the house...
Anyway, why push through the ski slope?
Maybe Blegoš isn't that interesting?
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| mariborcan11. 03. 2010 12:44:43 |
tol, now say, have you never crossed outside the crosswalk or on red? You look left right and if no cars (no danger) (and no police nearby) you just fly across. And do you really always literally stop at every stop sign?
Anyway, anarchy is also when sanctions are applied just bypassing the rules - this time ticket purchase, next time maybe 10 euros to the "warden's" pocket...
Mariborsko Pohorje has more residents nearby than Stari Vrh (without LJ, which isn't that close anyway), at the same time it's almost the only suitable target here, but I haven't noticed any special crowds or uncontrolled groups. At least regarding touring skiers, if anything, pedestrians are the problem.
Anyway, on ski slopes you often see snowcats driving there during operation when there are more people on the slope who don't expect to run into a snowcat at all. Wasn't it just last year on Stari Vrh that a snowcat ran over and killed a child (during operation, of course)?
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| vikon11. 03. 2010 15:12:39 |
The touring skier allegedly tried to bribe the warden with 20 € and he didn't take it.
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| vikon11. 03. 2010 15:23:57 |
I won't be smart because I wasn't there. But I suggest you invite Mr. JaniK and all his like-minded people to your areas and your ski slopes, because touring skiers are welcome there. During operation touring skiers don't bother me, but it gets on my nerves when I come to the parking lot and see the slope torn up by touring skiers and skiers who don't follow the rules for closed slope.
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| vikon11. 03. 2010 15:26:54 |
Matjaz_65 touring skiers don't heed warnings and notices if they are written, what's the point of someone "yelling" after them if they can't read.
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| mariborcan11. 03. 2010 16:21:10 |
I think Matjaz_65 summed it up correctly. And yes, janik and all others are invited to Pohorje!
But I have to say that otherwise I'm often critical of MB Pohorje managers, but regarding touring skiers and hikers, they (at least for now) hit the right path. Because they understand that Pohorje is some kind of recreation ground for Maribor residents, also hikers and touring skiers who don't buy tickets, and that with various bans they would mainly stir up public discontent and create bad advertising. Elsewhere they'd rather collect 10 eur...
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| janik11. 03. 2010 17:57:27 |
Vikon, you say you won't be smart because you weren't there; before that you already spilled everything about how it was. I climbed strictly along the edge of the ski slope, the car wasn't parked perfectly but still it was parked right at the very exit from the parking lot and didn't bother anyone since there was already a nicely parked bus right next to it. Twenty euros wasn't meant as a bribe but I wanted to tell the "warden" that it's not about money for me but about the principle since someone explains to me that it's because of dangerous behavior and chatter about ratracking the slope at 6.30 in the morning
The ruined slope on Stari Vrh is made by skiers who drive by car to the middle of the ski slope and then ski down first prematurely. Let me tell you also that on the upper part of the ski slope from the drag lift that leads to the top they were already skiing and setting up the slope for the race at seven; by 8.15 it was all ruined and scratched since meanwhile the competitors were already diligently warming up and speeding on the slope among ordinary recreational skiers among whom there were also small children but I didn't notice anyone warning them that the competition area is on the other side of the fence.
But they noticed a touring skier how he slowly step by step climbs up on the closed ski slope and causes general danger. From the hut at the top I skied down at 8:15 then the slope was already open. On the prohibition sign, if you recognize pictures, you don't even need to be literate; there's no whiff of prohibiting hiking but clearly drawn skier in ski stance and all crossed out.
So, Vikon, you spilled some useless stuff and that from the couch.
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| zippo11. 03. 2010 18:40:28 |
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| janik11. 03. 2010 18:48:06 |
Tol I see you're well versed in rules and laws I'm not and maybe that's exactly why I go into nature where unwritten laws of nature mostly apply and therefore I don't own it but I'm just a part of it at the moment when I use it and then leave it as I got it for others, without bad thoughts and intentions. When you say let him read something smarter and more suitable for this website let me remind you that on 28.2. you asked about conditions on Kokrsko sedlo, on 8.3. you answered yourself but not with conditions on the path and around it but only with a gripe about the winter hut. It would be much better if you added some photo from the path and description instead of just writing about the bad condition of the winter hut that most don't use anyway.
Otherwise you can skip a thread that tires you instead of participating in it so actively like you.
No hard feelings.
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| tol11. 03. 2010 20:05:47 |
I didn't write anything about conditions because they started changing already on 8.3 with new snowfall.
Partly also because of no response in the thread, well one thinks that rarely uses the path to Kokrsko sedlo from K.B.
Even more true is that we can skip the thread. But you know criticizing on hribi.net forum doesn't give any responsible person at STC Stari vrh the chance to argue the events and maybe it's right to clear things up but not in the direction of threats with media and the show Svet on Kanal A.
I think this story could have been resolved more civilly right at the place where you had to buy the ticket, but you missed the opportunity.
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