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Gonžarjeva peč

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JusAvgustin30. 05. 2011 16:48:38
turbo, I sign... nothing beats very difficult pathless terrain nasmeh
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stankoju30. 05. 2011 16:57:39
Andrej Mašera
Extreme ferratas are here
Last September in this spot in the intro Dangerous Self-Deception I thought about
the meaning of extreme (sport, adrenaline) ferratas that have exploded in Austria, and predicted
the possibility that they will soon appear here too. Didn't have to wait long! A group
of dedicated ferrata builders1 from PD Vinska Gora near Velenje has made an extremely demanding sports ferrata of Austrian type in the nearby wall of Gonžarjeva peč.
Climbing routes are the topic of the month in this issue of PV, the issue is illuminated from several different angles.
The problem I see regarding Gonžarjeva peč is not the construction of such a ferrata, but lies
elsewhere. Upon opening the path they issued an informational sticker, on which the route is drawn,
added some warnings that are unfortunately written in rather clumsy Slovenian and quite arbitrarily
and inconsistently translated into German and English. We also see that
sponsorship over the path has been taken over by PZS, which has included it among its training polygons.
On the sticker there are also classifications of the ferrata difficulty in a special frame, Austrian and compared to it our "own". And – here's the hook! The Austrian classification, marked with capital
letters (A, B, C … F and beyond) is distinctly calibrated for sports ferratas, as it practically puts all
classic climbing routes in groups A and B. Grade C already means serious climbing in vertical
wall, mostly just along the steel cable, with few brackets and/or pitons. Ferratas that would match Austrian
ratings from D onwards, we don't have at all on Slovenian territory (of course excluding
Gonžarjeva peč, rated D/E)!
The parallel Slovenian classification on the sticker marks ferratas A as "demanding paths", B and C
as "very demanding paths", D–F as "SECURED CLIMBING PATHS". That's completely new,
something in complete contradiction to the official classification of hiking paths that PZS
has been enforcing in our mountains for a long time in written guidebooks and also on direction signs.
If we quickly refresh our memory, PZS classification puts hiking paths among easy, demanding and
very demanding. All ferratas, regardless of difficulty, fall into very demanding paths. And precisely
because of that the official PZS classification is very deficient, because it doesn't differentiate climbing paths
by difficulty, but squeezes them all into one bag. Including all ferratas among very demanding
paths sometimes leads to such absurdity that some very demanding marked path without
protections is marked only as "demanding", well protected otherwise easy ferrata, full of
iron, as "very demanding path"! The builders of the ferrata on Gonžarjeva peč undoubtedly
were aware of the shortcomings of the current official classification of hiking paths here and offered besides
the Austrian also a proposal for a new Slovenian classification. But thereby they unintentionally caused
complete confusion, as besides wrong placement of demanding and very demanding paths for
the hardest ferratas they introduced the term "secured climbing paths", which is conceptual tautology; the name
implies that paths of difficulty A to C are actually not secured or not climbing at all.
For climbing paths (also Austrian from A to F) protections are the basic feature that distinguishes them
from other paths in the mountains. To particularly emphasize that some are secured makes no sense,
but only confuses people.
As for the Austrian ferrata classification, we must note that its main shortcoming
is placing too large a group of climbing paths of different difficulties only into two groups
(A, B). For most climbing paths in our mountains this classification is objectively unusable.
Many years ago, when I wrote the first edition of the guide to Slovenian ferratas, I used
a classification into which we can put all climbing paths by difficulty, which gradually and
evenly increases (PP 1, 2, 3…), with possible intermediate grades. According to it e.g. ferrata
on Raduha has PP 1 or max 2, Kopiščarjeva path on Prisojnik PP 4, new ferrata on
Gonžarjeva peč PP 6 or more. The differences in difficulty are clear at first glance, everyone can
decide for ascent according to their taste and abilities.
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turbo30. 05. 2011 19:07:12
I'd say it like this. If we look at the old days, when we didn't know extreme ferratas yet. As example. In the middle of the night mrk pogled you left home, in the dark you "struggled" zadrega over remains of snowfields and when day broke you were at the start of Via della Vite on Vevnica. Then you more or less enjoyed zavijanje z očmi the wall, sometimes you had to "manage", because protections were damaged, the ambiance was such "it took your breath away" and despite good fitness you were at least a bit knackered when you exited. Then you dragged to the top of Vevnica, as it should be, then descended to bivouac at Zagače. And ahead was only descent, which you did right over Mangart past Nogara bivouac, because it seemed easiest and closest zmeden. Home before dark, even though summer day is looong mežikanje

These new extremes somehow like this: in mid-morning velik nasmeh you drive to the tour, park in the shade cool because it's hot already, arrive under the "wall", wait a bit for entry because crowd (guys entering third time that day!) and then dash up the steel cables. Legs light because in climbing shoes, back rested because no backpack needed, just hands get pissed off here and there jezen, what can you do when you have to pull up. Descent casual and at 13h during lunch at home of course bragging how oh and awesome . . . it was nasmehzavijanje z očmi

Tried both and nothing beats the first case. Good old classic. Soul groans with pleasure after such a tour, while with extremes at end of day something's missing. Achievement yes, achievement, but everything else (flora, fauna, ambiance, views, solitude,...)?!?
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MANGRT30. 05. 2011 20:08:48
turbo, excellent description, our mountains are becoming one big gym with aids.
NOTHING BEATS DARKNESS AND CLASSIC,
1
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Jany31. 05. 2011 08:34:29
And now @Stanko fully theorizes. The question is quite simple.
Is pulling on cables, as we see in his photos, climbing ferratas, or is it not?
No hard feelings and best regards
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neph31. 05. 2011 12:33:38
@Jany

"Ordinary hikers" certainly have too little developed climbing technique to climb such ferratas without pulling on the cable. Climbers might perhaps come up with such an idea, but I see no particular sense in it, as we risk even more dangerous, almost completely static falls if we don't use additional protection with quickdraws.

Another story are certain ferratas abroad where the cables are loose...

Personally, I think the point of ferratas is using the aids available (at least the cable). Some enjoy it, but it cannot be compared to free climbing in any respect.
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heinz31. 05. 2011 14:01:24
The fact is that the meaning of ferrata - protected path is completely worn out. Protections and aids have simply become one and the same. How the latter is mixed up is nicely seen in the Triglav example: where there are pegs, there are no cables and vice versa.
I would think that ropes intended for pulling are mainly those anchored only at the top, free at the bottom. Practice is constantly changing, what do we want.., for some of us (or many) the only positive is that in this way we can reach many summits that we would never reach otherwise in life. But here perhaps no greater absurdity can be found, which appears precisely in cases when the goal becomes just overcoming a certain exposed part of the wall, with the intention, as the predecessor well described, that a person, because of the adrenaline that overwhelmed him, at the end imagines how terrible a thing/cliff he has >climbed<.
Also so-called adrenaline parks in Slovenia are becoming a bigger hit day by day. And big business for some, in which there is of course nothing controversial to seek.
But I think that three things like: tourism, sport and mountaineering as love of nature, which differ quite a bit in their essence, are increasingly trying to be too unified due to business interests. Those who promote the latter have lately had quite some success even in attracting (us) nature lovers.
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geppo31. 05. 2011 15:13:08
30.5.2011 What can you say??? big grin
again the endless polemic opens..

I knew it would develop into an endless polemic.
Why ferratas? "endless pulling on holds" fear of overhangs, verticals, searching for few pegs and so on..
I'll write for myself..
I'm a fan of pathless routes (don't like crowds), like walking endless green meadows, climbing rocks, ascending forest slopes, gullies, and I could describe more..
When my son gets tired of climbing and my neck from looking up, I climb (in hiking boots) some 3rd grade/taste 4th and then he lowers me..
When I climbed (literally dragged myself over) the first difficult ferrata I was exhausted, palms full of bloody blisters and thinking ..this...this??
Then the opening of ZZP in Vinska G. (Gonžarjeva peč). I went to the opening and climbed the route first before the official climber of PD Vinska Gora. Climbed or dragged (a bit of both) in a trance. Very fast (there was a crowd of spectators below).
OK after a few days repeat. It is really hard..
Now, I repeat it slowly and as much as possible with feet (when that doesn't work anymore, hand strength remains).
I'm close and once is enough for me!!
Best in company and then at the top we evaluate how everyone used the naturally given opportunities for climbing pleasure.
On Sunday I repeated Železna Kapla (Turška glava)
Several of us CLIMBED (organization and leading PD Velenje). Also members of Maribor "Uličarji"
Guides Mijo and Milan.
At the top of this extreme ferrata I was still full of strength, without any blisters and satisfied in my own way. Still full of energy..
More experience, without rushing (time, how fast you get over is NOT IMPORTANT !!!), maximum use of the terrain "legs suffer", not arms, if possible without "pulling on the cable".
I'm not obsessed with ferratas now...but when I feel like it, in the late afternoon (the slab nicely in shade) I drive to Vinska Gora (if I'm not running at least 10km in the forest or to Gora Oljka) and climb that much maligned ZZP. Sit on the bench at the top and enjoy the wind that usually blows and dries the sweat on my forehead (this ZZP always causes me a few drops of sweat consequently..) !!
what can we say ?..
thank God we are different..

Sometimes my son (alpinist trainee) waits for me at the top, who doesn't mind what dad does..1
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Fifi31. 05. 2011 15:23:12
Now I've made a mess hehe big grin

Good that at least the hikers organized and used this nice corner for a climbing route, strange that Velenje alpinists don't exploit it instead of coming to us to polish rocksbig grin
because they have incredible potential there(Kotečnik 2)
Next time I'll come with the little machine hehebig grin

Everyone has their own joy, and I believe that no matter how we do this ascent, the same feelings surround us at the top, although I am more of this opinion:
Even Messner said that these protections and aids, with which the ascent should be facilitated, murder the impossible!
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fika31. 05. 2011 21:47:23
geppo
I completely agree with you.
Everyone according to their abilities and what's most important EVERYONE FOR THEIR OWN JOY because we all invest quite some effort into any kind of climbing.

best regards
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penzionist1. 06. 2011 04:06:32
From SSKJ:
plézanje -a s (ẹ̑) verbal noun from plezati: climbing of monkeys; climbing on trees; preparation for climbing / a hiker got injured while climbing; climbing steep walls; climbing technique ♪

Well, if monkeys can climb trees and hikers steep walls, then I really don't know why overcoming height on ferratas shouldn't be climbing too.

Probably no one here remembers anymore how at the beginning of the last century various Ferdinands and Klemens strolled even over overhangs of our walls. Later the "golden age" of alpinism sneaked in, nails were happily hammered and lojtras used, and that's what alpinism and CLIMBING looked like until the mid-eighties. By then free climbing was well established here, lojtras went into oblivion, but at the same time large-scale drilling began. At first short crags, later real high walls. And of course one also CLIMBS there.

Now we have got an intermediate niche here, so-called extreme ferratas. And like every new thing, this is also subject to some indignation and pity. But don't forget, they were indignant over nails, over bolts, over crags, over boulders... and even over "stamping on eight-thousanders". But perhaps a more interesting question: who is most indignant? As far as I know good (read top) alpinists, I haven't heard any being indignant over ferrata climbers. They have their world, their challenges, which are completely elsewhere from these paths. The vast majority has no qualms descending the Bamberg path when they reach the Sphinx edge, but it is true that the same majority would by no means support, say, a ferrata on Široka peč. But some compromise must be, and as long as it's within reasonable limits, it's probably the best solution.
And if good alpinists are not indignant, then the scree walkers? Why? Do they feel threatened? Or with this disparaging of others, do they just want to show their own oh and I'm so great? This emphasized reference to nature protection is anyway such a fairy tale that it's already ridiculously believable.

Gepp's description is very nicely written and I raise both hands for it. I also like to roam scree and among the best memories are solitary rambles on Martuljek and Trent towers. And I've tasted ice and high altitude, some delights of first ascents, ski touring rambles, great descents, indoor walls and I don't know why I should be ashamed now if I like going on some ferrata too. No one forces me anywhere and I hope no one forces others either.

Ah, yes, it's true. Ferrata climbing is not alpinism, just as sport climbing is not alpinism, ski touring is its own chapter, likewise "walking" on eight-thousanders. But someone who wants to throw all this into one pot must really have completely mixed up concepts.
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heinz1. 06. 2011 09:42:02
Of course everyone has their own joy, and in the concept of climbing as such there is nothing unclear or controversial.., just adrenaline sports need to be separated from mountains. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, if the whole of Slovenia rushes to some extreme ferrata at once, and praises and sings it at the top of their lungs.. if it's joy, then everything is ok, isn't it?
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keber11. 06. 2011 14:52:09
>> one needs to know how to separate adrenaline sports from mountains.
Why? Doesn't adrenaline belong to mountains? What then is pathless strolling on exposed slopes?
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turbo1. 06. 2011 15:15:08
Pathless strolling on exposed slopes is oh and indeed balm for the soul, pleasure for the eyes and joy for the heart. But when during pathless strolling I almost step on a snake or a chamois surprises me from some crack within a meter or two, or the like, then there is some adrenaline with it.winking
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jjasmin3. 06. 2011 04:50:40
Gonžarjeva peč is also described in the new guide 55 Equipped Climbing Routes.
http://www.gore-ljudje.net/novosti/66348/
1
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zippo3. 06. 2011 12:23:57
no great, so Gonžarca got its recognition backnasmeh
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šerpa5. 06. 2011 05:39:42
I was yesterday on Gonžarjeva peč. All protections ok, but I advise against "climbing" until the rain eases and the wall and bypass path dry well. I climbed it twice, then gave up because of the deposited mud it was super slippery. lp
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panda5. 06. 2011 11:27:22
I haven't climbed any other "ferrate" except Via Italiana on Mangrt, so it's hard to add anything "expert" to above comments. Anyway: I go hiking just to enjoy not rush like some who beat times and boast. Still something weird in wanting to be better than others. Wonder what I want to say? Simple, my example from last Wed. With colleague 16 yrs younger we started from Vrhe pass to Donačka gora via East summit, ridge to west summit descent to Rudi's hut. Time: enviable 1h17min for me (3 stops in between, one on path, 2nd east 3rd west summit - total 15min included). Then beer, 10min break, then 25min on "To Sotla spring" path SW around Donačka gora to car. Express fast for me to prove to self & "young pup" if I can trash him despite age & his bike fitness. What did I gain proving I'm his match? Nothing, just back on time before evening storm & time for another beer & his praise I was fast & wore him out. That's it. Won't race that fast anymore. And such ferrate 1-1.5h don't pull me before lunch. Just my opinion no forcing. I enjoy hiking no competing with book times or quoted ones. Greetings to all mountain lovers. nasmeh
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MANGRT31. 07. 2011 21:57:17
Today I was on Sunday outing and visited this tough ferrata. Cleverly routed (praise makers), sections appropriately difficult but short. During climbing can't avoid soil that dirties your soles. Don't recommend to beginners not skilled with via ferrata kit.
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neph30. 09. 2011 22:01:36
Ferrata on Gonžarjeva peč is short but extremely demanding. Gains difficulty imo just cos equipped only with pegs thru which cable runs, no extra brackets/pegs. Over first slab need to pull hands a lot (with normal boots not climbers), top even step on friction or tiny holds. Next "detail" ~10m above logbook, cable awkwardly routed imo. Right invites easier terrain/good holds, left big slab - cable so left more logical vs cable, else awkward position, uses more power, be careful. At least my take, surely better variants nasmeh Climbers shoes handy upper/lower, with them difficulty drops or less arm pump. Whoever up to it no big probs. Compared to hyped Železna Kapla, Gonžarjeva at least equal or harder in details. Anyway absolute no-go for hillwalkers w/o experience on easier/similar ferrats. Know cases rescued with rope from wall. Sling w/nut clip very useful esp crowd or not 100% sure to do in one. That's from me nasmeh
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