New Year's Eve on Kredarica (Triglav)
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| JusAvgustin2. 01. 2010 12:48:46 |
that's right, volunteerism is lacking! most would now like payment, where is the sense of humanity... true, the times are different. 
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| heinz2. 01. 2010 21:37:46 |
I think that when some mention that these (and similar) heroes should be charged for it, money wasn't meant exactly or even exclusively...
It's also true that punishment or criticism or its measure against repeating irresponsible actions, in our time is expressed by a hit in the pocket. The others (observers) don't benefit much from it, or we're even ready to defend the "poor unfortunates", since such punishment - taking their money, is the worst thing that can happen to them..
It's about their decision being worthy of condemnation from somewhat more conscientious people. Commenting and criticism are certainly in place in these cases, when lives of numerous participants are at stake, since it's clear that we all learn from such and similar (mostly) negative absurd experiences.
That's how it is.
I know that I might need GRS help myself someday, but at the same time it's clear to me that if I were to defend others' irresponsible decisions in any way, I wouldn't benefit myself in any way...
Of course they needed to be helped. Undisputed.
It is also undisputed because of what decision.
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| polh2. 01. 2010 22:06:53 |
If they started charging for such situations, as some wish according to the comments, the likely end result would be more dead mountaineers.
That promille from the budget for rescues doesn't bother me.
I'm only sorry that the rescuers had to be away from their families or friends on that day to go rescue those people who are probably also very selfish and ignorant.
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| stefanb4. 01. 2010 14:11:20 |
Quoting today's newspaper "Večer":
"I'm convinced the mountaineers were experienced, they just miscalculated a bit with the late start of the tour. They reacted correctly and called for help in time, so I will advocate the thesis that in this case it wasn't thoughtlessness and there are no dilemmas about whether the mountaineers should perhaps cover the rescue costs themselves", adds Martinjak, who is visibly satisfied that the first day of the new year didn't end with a tragic event in our mountains.
End of quote.
Well, understand if you can. Since it's sale time, quickly to the stores for all the gear (so we look experienced) then off to the mountains. 
But I agree, the mountaineers' equipment saved the rescuers from the New Year's Eve hike. And it's true that fortunately there were no victims.
Everything else points to the absence of standards to me.
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| JusAvgustin4. 01. 2010 14:28:38 |
"I'm convinced the mountaineers were experienced, they just miscalculated a bit with the late start of the tour." experienced ones wouldn't go from Kot to Stanič in such conditions, especially since that path isn't walked in winter. good thing they didn't go via the climbing path to Rjavina, that would have been an adrenaline-filled New Year's Eve , if conditions aren't favorable turn back, simple as that...
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| Otto4. 01. 2010 15:41:48 |
Maybe they are experienced after all, but made a mistake. Even experienced drivers (even professional ones) sometimes fall asleep at the wheel, but no one talks about inexperience.
As for paying for rescues, I see that most of the various commentators want (in different accidents) for it to be paid. The problem is in the vagueness of the rescue service. Maybe it would really be best if everything is billed and rescuers opened their own s.p.'s, we would then choose the cheapest in case of an accident. Let cave rescuers, divers, volunteer firefighters and others do the same, and we'll see where we'll end up.
Surely we don't want that.
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| BT884. 01. 2010 15:56:45 |
So there's no misunderstanding. When someone heads to the mountains in summer or winter in case of injury (fracture, sprain.....) or illness, which can come quickly and is unpredictable even for such a prepared person, it's a case which is rescued normally and compassionately, free of charge etc. EXCLUSIVELY APPLIES TO CASES THAT ALLOW IT. If a mountaineer heads to Triglav today though.... I WANT TO SAY THAT WE HAVE GOOD WEATHER FORECASTERS WHO ACCURATELY PREDICT THE WEATHER IN 90% OF CASES, AND IF SOMEONE BREAKS A LEG ON THE WAY TO TRIGLAV IN AUGUST OR JANUARY IN SUNNY WEATHER THEN THEY GO TO SEARCH FOR HIM.
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| ploha4. 01. 2010 16:05:58 |
Fact is that a lot has already been said about this topic, words are repeating, we all accuse them of inexperience, thoughtlessness..If they had managed to reach the top and wrote about it on the forum everyone would say super, but like this they gave us a bone to gnaw and in that Slovenes are unbeatable.For us they are not experienced either (we'll find something) Kozjek, Oderlap, Humar...We can be glad it all ended happily and that's it! That's my personal opinion, cheers
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| stefanb4. 01. 2010 18:27:16 |
My writing doesn't go in the direction of "payment" by those involved, so we don't misunderstand.
But the problem is the criteria, which (maybe I don't know them) can be very subjective and decide on eventual payment. When that's settled, there will be fewer failed trips.
As long as it's like this, we shouldn't be surprised by various "Czechs" who after that declare that conditions were totally fine. And then don't bash them.
Mixing professionalism and such events is mixing apples and pears.
And as long as it's like this, GRS guys will still risk their heads too often (and on a voluntary basis). There have already been fatalities when they went to rescue in similar situations. Does something like that have to repeat for anything to move.
And I think in most cases it's not just about gnawing a bone. Simply these things need to be arranged differently and make it clear to mountaineers what and how. Like this it will still happen that some call and save their life with it, others don't dare because they fear costs.
As Katanec would say: "Hat's off to those guys", who do this so selflessly regardless of conditions and moreover voluntarily.
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| viharnik4. 01. 2010 18:57:45 |
Fact is, experienced mountaineers don't embark on such an ambitious tour in the afternoon, like e.g. me to Šmarna gora. Walking with crampons in a group is no art. To face the natural factors on this path, which were at least expected by experts, is another story. In short for me still an unserious winter approach, although I believe from the mountaineers' side equipment-wise carefully prepared, but basically realistically unfinished and ridiculous. For Kredarica namely mountaineers in normal conditions, according to expert alpinists' stories, would need 7-8 hours ascent.
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| m're 111. 01. 2010 13:35:29 |
Heated debate as there hasn't been in a long time...
Yes, most likely we would talk quite differently if it ended tragically.
My thinking would go more in the direction indicated by Geolog79 and Viharnik.
In mountains, especially snowy ones, certain rules apply. One of them is that in shady sides of high mountains you normally don't go during hard winter. Snow is usually less settled and more unstable than on sunny sides. Just the opposite in spring, when snow on sunny sides is usually more unstable, things usually worsen during the day. Along with this I don't mean that these rules are 100% and always hold true. There are exceptions, which you learn from experience, own or others', but that requires quite some mountain kilometers. But I won't bore - better read something on the topic, follow besides weather also avalanche forecast (ours, Italian, Austrian) or even better go to appropriate training (alpine school, snow avalanche safety days, etc.).
So: Equipped I believe, experienced - I wouldn't say, rather naive. Thank God it turned out as it did. I hope someone learned something from this.
I dare say yes, everyone who seriously goes to mountains and/or climbs, ski tours, boards has at some point done some prime stupidity. I have too, probably will some more, but hope as few fateful as possible.
We must realize that there would be few of us if every mistake was punished. Sometimes you need some luck. Say whatever you want.
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| nisa12. 01. 2010 13:43:28 |
I agree with what mre 1 wrote. Equipped, but inexperienced. They had the whole night to think where the mistake was. Luck that it ended like this.
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| dore13. 01. 2010 09:25:48 |
How much bragging for nothing.
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| heinz13. 01. 2010 17:31:20 |
dore, what we "bragged" is already growing.
Question is, what will come of your "hvanče"..
AND one more thing: whoever the above comments represent only what dore says shows nothing else but that he is capable of repeating the story of our "heroes".
Question is, if with the same outcome..
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| serajko13. 01. 2010 17:38:49 |
I'm increasingly feeling that some are provoking us with their writing. If they really mean what they write, it's quite worrying!! ???
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| tol13. 01. 2010 17:51:32 |
Equip your "contributions" with full names and surnames, so that no initials ever match the "stupid" comments of individual authors here on the forum when we read who was rescued from a silly situation.
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| viharnik13. 01. 2010 18:31:53 |
Accident in the mountains never sleeps, so discussion about safety is not out of place. Everyone makes mistakes in life, but we learn from them, so with our contributions we didn't criticize the group of hikers at all, but explained, discussed and examined the situation. This can happen to any mountaineer despite the best planning.
Many years ago an unfortunate event happened to a gentleman, just over a hundred meters on the Tominšek path above Vrata valley. He was well prepared for the summer hike. Suddenly he slips on wet ground and badly injures his ankle, can hardly move, it hurts badly. He couldn't go further because of the sprain. Then he decides to go back rhythmically, but very slowly and with great difficulty. Since he was heading to Kredarica late in the afternoon, darkness catches him just a stone's throw from the valley. He spent a huge amount of time descending with the injured leg in difficult, steep terrain. There were no mobiles then to call, and he made it to Aljažev dom on his own, where they then helped him further.
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| IgorZlodej13. 01. 2010 20:04:32 |
GRZS website:
http://www.grzs.si/?MenuID=1&NewsID=853, where among other things this is listed:
GRS Mojstrana: rescue of hikers below Staničeva koča
- late start on the tour,
- unsuitable ascent route
- loss of orientation,
- increased avalanche danger
- suitable bivouac equipment
- rescue by helicopter and classic descent to the valley
The first four points clearly show obvious mistakes in tour preparation, if it was done at all, and inexperience. They somehow overcame the predicament they got into with proper bivouac gear, but I'm sure it wasn't fun up there. By the way, on one of the photos on the GRZS rescue action page I noticed that at least two didn't have gaiters (possible I saw wrong).
As viharnik already wrote, accident in mountains never sleeps and sometimes you really need some luck. But it's not reasonable to consciously push into trouble. Just before the mentioned event PZS held a press conference where they also talked about visiting high mountains in unmeasured conditions, ARSO - avalanche service regularly warns of increased snow avalanche danger, GRZS with its preventive activity tries to inform about conditions and dangers lurking for visitors to the winter mountain world (right now there's an announcement on GRZS site for Avalanche Awareness Days), the mountain police unit does similar, and finally warnings were piling up on forums for Kredarica those days too, but obviously it doesn't convince some, even more, as a mockery to all the efforts of competent services and individuals someone organizes a hike that he probably never did himself (I strongly doubt 6 people randomly gather at the same time and place at a certain spot and head to a precisely defined goal) and leads a group into demanding winter conditions. In such cases criminal responsibility of the "leader-organizer" should be sought, as in the "Belgians" case.
Shame this forum isn't set up so that registration with full name is mandatory, since we actually have nothing to pretend or hide about.
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| turbo13. 01. 2010 21:06:03 |
Already that they started in Kot says it all. More or less.
Otherwise Igor already told it straight. Nothing to add.
If I look at GRZS actions chronology for the last two years, I have to humbly admit I missed at least two opportunities to get a free helicopter ride.
Uninjured, but well equipped. 
I don't pretend and don't hide
Bojan Turšič
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