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| Okmodko20. 10. 2011 23:23:02 |
Well then Italianized names if that sounds nicer than fascist. Whoever forcibly changes a nation's names is no good person in my book no matter if fascist, capitalist, communist, Christian, postman, fisherman or miner. Anyway the burning of the National Home was also in 1920. At the time of the Rapallo border. Before fascism. And how do you know they Italianized all names exactly in those two years? Italians are slow  On this list there's no name outside the Rapallo border that was Italianized between 1938 and 1944. For Lower Carniola and Ljubljana which they occupied then. And they had 6 years to do it Anyway, one can philosophize infinitely. It's not nice that these names brought by force are still used. Germans also Germanized names in the other part of Slovenia but no German uses them today. And they don't impose them either.
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| Okmodko20. 10. 2011 23:32:11 |
Aha! Now I know what to call these names Political names! And that's the difference between folk names where they saw thorns and named it Trnovo and the political name Tarnova, where politicians saw only the desire to Italianize non-Italian territory :P
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| wolphgang21. 10. 2011 00:22:24 |
yes, and Strnišče is now Kidričevo, Sveta Lucija Most na Soči, Sveti Križ Vipavski Križ, Šempeter na Krasu Pivka, Šembid Podnanos etc.
So, it wasn't only fascists like that, it's common to all totalitarian systems
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| Okmodko21. 10. 2011 02:04:57 |
Even before that Christians Christianized places and gave them names after saints, capitalists gave Jarše meadows name BTC City, Vrhovše Technological Park, and Ljubljana marsh Shopping Center Rudnik. Tina Maze fans renamed Črno to Zlato in Koroška, Slovenes have Slovenized Radolca to Radovljica, Begne to Begunje, Prisank to Prisojnik and similar. Looks like we're all fascists,right? Is there a difference? Normal person notices.
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| Loni21. 10. 2011 07:38:59 |
It bothers you because you're Slovenian, which is also right. But Italian will always use Italian naming, that's how it is and you can't change anything here. I also today go to Most na Soči, my old father went to Sveta Lucija all his life because he was used to that naming.
And I go to Mangart and to Porezen, because at home that's how it's called, and Prisank too.
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| zippo21. 10. 2011 08:32:40 |
And we will always go to Rome although it's Roma and sometimes they went to study in Vienna although it was Wien, went to try bograč in Budimpešta which is Budapest and had fun at the carnival in Venice which is Venezia ...
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| atoamac21. 10. 2011 11:10:31 |
Okmodko, Google Earth is created/added by users. Nobody forbids you to do the same, whether it's Srebrno in Koroška, Benetke or Snežnik.
And also: even before Italians or later fascists named those places in German, and many places in Slovenia, not only on the broader linguistically mixed territory, still have German names on their maps, books, etc. Same as Beljak, Celovec, Videm on our maps.
As for this topic, I would often, during tour planning and browsing foreign sources, rather see that the mountain has only one name. At least you know exactly which one it is.
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| Okmodko21. 10. 2011 12:05:34 |
But why do you all cut so off-topic? You're talking completely wrong. LONI - why don't Germans use pogermanized names? How can they be so insightful? And Marburg and Laibach are not Nazi names. They exist because Germans once lived in those cities, because we were at least 1000 years in the same state. Tarnova for Trnovo is a sign of violence, humiliation and massacre. Google Earth users get the name from Italian maps, since the state allows it. In South Tyrol they solve these problems very well, but at us they remain because the state and people are like Loni, who say that's just how it is. That's why we must value Maistri, partisans and politicians in 1991 even more because they showed a bit of un-Slovenian character. And Rome is a historical Slovenian name that developed among the people over the years, like Lubiana among Italians. It has no connection with the name Tarnova for Trnovo.
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| Loni21. 10. 2011 14:08:53 |
Okmodko, just this: take the book Nazi Denationalization Policy in Slovenia in the Years 1941-1945 in your hands and leaf through it a bit. And probably you've already heard Hitler's words spoken in Maribor. We don't need German namings of our (and other) places; there were enough other actions that testify to their involvement outside their home territory.
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| Okmodko21. 10. 2011 14:27:24 |
But I really don't know if people read so badly what someone writes, or don't understand or there are some other reasons or I just wrote badly. Maja0 said something that even now I don't know if she agrees with me or not, or what the hell... What I wrote up there about naming other names and renaming and I don't know what else, I have NOTHING against. I'm only against Italians using names that originated in 1920 with the purpose of Italianizing Slovenian territory, since we were less worthy to them, barbarians and similar. If an Italian comes to Trnovo and says to an older gentleman who suffered a hard part of his life under fascist rule and who fought for many years to get to this: "bella Tarnova", that Italian will probably hurt that gentleman. Therefore it would be better if these names are NOT used. If I come to Peking and say to someone beautiful Peking, it won't mean anything to him, because I never forced him with a pistol to use that name.
Loni, I don't understand that last sentence of yours. "We don't need"... did Hitler say?
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| turbo21. 10. 2011 14:50:35 |
@Okmodko
probably shooting in the dark, or not 
...I drove in the Salzburg direction and then turned towards Holy Blood. Above Holy Blood I drove to Franz Josef's garage house, parked and then descended to Pasterica. On Great Klek I climbed the next day . . .
That would be correct. At least approximately correct. Conversationally everyone says they were or are going to GrossGlockner. They tell, ask what the conditions are like on the glacier, on Pasterze. And many treat themselves to a drink after or before the tour in Heiligenblut.
Here and now I say I am going to Celovec. When over Karawanks and get lost  then ask in which direction Klagenfurt is. Usually it works out. Here and there.
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| Okmodko21. 10. 2011 14:59:39 |
TURBO!!! I really don't feel like explaining what I write 100x anymore. Those names you listed are Slovenian and mean only that grossglockner is big, really big, pastirica apparently has some connection with shepherds. While names Tarnova for Trnovo originated in 1920 with the purpose of Italianizing Slovenian territory, since we were less worthy for them, barbarians and similar. Uh, I still have to do copy-paste...
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| VanSims21. 10. 2011 15:05:04 |
***atoamac said:*** "Regarding this topic, when planning a tour and browsing foreign sources, I'd often prefer if a mountain had only one name. At least you know exactly which one it is."
As far as I'm concerned, it's the one that's official in that country or area where the mountain is or as written on the signposts. That's how you find your way best on the terrain. Not like LP for wandering around Mokrin says Monte Corona and it only dawns on me after longer confusion that it's Kronalpe as written on still Austrian signposts even though already on the Italian side.
That's most practical. In brackets there can also be other names if they exist.
Why do Germans use ours, Italians their own names? No, not because the latter have something against us but because Italians are bad at languages and also find it harder to pronounce and adopt foreign names. Germans prefer to adopt foreign names.
I remember a case of an acquaintance who in Vienna asked when the train for Laibach goes. The clerk behind the counter corrected her immediately: Ljubljana! An Italian will practically always say Londra, Pariggi, Monaco di Baviera, Strasburgo, Salisburgo, Lubiana,... and not only with our names.
Interesting is, for example, the Italian name for Koper i.e. Capodistria, which doesn't follow the original Romance Capris (which comes from goats that used to graze there when it was still an island and the goat is still in the coat of arms of this city). Capodistria means "Istrian cape". But our name Koper follows the Romance name. Interesting are sometimes these namings.
MajaO: Since this mountain is on the border with China, Zhuó'àoyǒu Shān is also correct. In pinyin, of course. Chinese names must be written only in pinyin although you still see writings like Mao Tse-tung and similar here 
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| turbo21. 10. 2011 15:22:27 |
ALL DIFFERENT, ALL EQUAL!
Thanks, I don't know to whom, that I'm different
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| Okmodko21. 10. 2011 16:11:57 |
Yeah, VanSims speaks most logically, while turbo still says something I understand as well as Zhuó'àoyǒu Shān  Anyway, I see we've come from Triglav at the start of this forum to Zhuó'àoyǒu Shān already
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| jax21. 10. 2011 18:21:33 |
Well, let me chime in a bit 
Regarding Italian names: from 1918 onwards the western part of Slovenia was Italian. What the policy was is another question, but let's be clear about something: do you really think any state wouldn't create a set of names for places on its territory in its official language? Those names are strictly speaking nothing fascist, but simply Italian, and were created by the Italian government because it was Italian territory.
Primorska wasn't annexed to Italy because fascists wanted it, but simply because such a peace treaty was accepted. And national composition of the territory doesn't even need mentioning, because that's, however blasphemous it seems today, a minor and changeable criterion.
Another thing: if the use of Italian names hurts some Primorska people (I belong to them btw), let them first clear it with themselves. Italian history is simply connected to these places and I don't know why deny it. If it associates someone with something, it's their thing, but we live in a democratic society and choice of names is free (other are concrete political moves, but here there aren't major issues, regardless what some Karst hotheads claim).
Of course it's true that Italians use their names for many places outside Italy (not only Slovenian as said). But why shouldn't they? Just like we have our translations for cities where Slovenian was never spoken but were important for Slovenes in some way, Italians have them too. That they have more than us is their thing. And should French resent them for Parigi, Marsiglia or Lione? Why?
Finally - nothing wrong with Peking either. It's among established translations and I don't know why replace it in Slovenian texts. International correspondence is something else - but there probably neither Vienna nor Rome are used...
That's from me, and have a nice day everyone
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| Okmodko21. 10. 2011 22:42:43 |
Jax what's your name so I Italianize your name? Anyway if someone resisted that Trnovo is Tarnova they wanted to kill him. And let him still hear today that it's Tarnova. Nice. Enjoy.
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| atoamac21. 10. 2011 22:58:00 |
If you look closely at the map, you see also the place Ternova and Ternovonar Wald. So fascists much later just a bit messed around...
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