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| Žiga2212. 05. 2009 18:02:48 |
Hi!
I'm interested in a third opinion, namely what kind of belaying (in rope teams of two and two) is most suitable if you only have a rope but no harness?
As far as I know, in this situation the so-called "dead knot" is the most appropriate, with which you tie yourself and the protected person.
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| viharnik12. 05. 2009 19:47:06 |
In the past, when there were no climbing harnesses yet, a nylon knot was used around the waist for tying in, together with a safety knot. This kind of belaying (rope only) or even without a chest loop is dangerous and is not used on steep, precipitous sections. Waist-only belay turns you upside down upon a fall or the loop with the waist pulls to the side and turns you again. When hanging from the rope, you survive at most two hours (under favorable conditions) upside down; if the rope squeezes you, body parts suffer already in five minutes and it's only a matter of minutes left for life. In the handbook Dangers in the Mountains (Pavle Šegula), the picture on the cover vividly shows the tragic accident of the first ascenders on Matterhorn in 1865, when the hanging-in-the-air rope team of men perished. Use of rope therefore only in easier climbs, elsewhere the climbing harness is essential.
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| Žiga2212. 05. 2009 20:01:34 |
Actually, this kind of belay that I have in mind is intended more for more demanding ascents whose routes are already secured with steel cables and pegs. Here one should additionally self-belay with rope and slings; if necessary, two by two tie in and additionally belay with slings.
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| viharnik12. 05. 2009 20:15:34 |
In this case it's best to belay individually (less annoying), by buying a climbing harness (rock-empire) at a good price in K2-Lj., adding a figure-eight of two rope strands (approx 4m-10mm) directly to the front loop, clip in a carabiner and that's it. I don't know more to say. Triglavski might help.
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| medo*4. 06. 2009 17:19:18 |
Life is precious to me, so I wouldn't ask strangers on the forum about rope belaying even for a fifth opinion.
1. If you go only once to three times a year on very demanding ascents where you need rope belaying, it's best to hire a mountain guide with a valid license of the appropriate category from some mountaineering association.
2. If you want to go on demanding routes more often, it's best to complete a climbing school or at least some course for more demanding tours like e.g. http://www.pzs.si/index.php?stran=Dogodki&dogodek=4090 or http://www.pzs.si/index.php?stran=Dogodki&dogodek=4091
A lot about hiking in mountains and rope use can be read in the book Towards the Summits, written by Jani Bele: http://www.pzs.si/index.php?stran=Trgovina&izdelek=156, but equipment we carry and don't know how to use is just "courage" in the backpack.
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| ljubitelj gora10. 02. 2013 00:04:22 |
Do others carry some rope with you in summer time?
I looked at 0.8mm costs 2.5 euro/m, but such rope would take "too much" space in the backpack, since I don't plan to climb but it's about safety in case I accidentally get stuck somewhere, those ropes approx 0.5mm (I think 50 cents/m) look a bit risky, unsuitable to me and nobody uses them. I do prepare for the tour, but sometimes I think that rope shouldn't be missing in the backpack for not too demanding pathless terrain. Maybe still take 0.8mm 10-20m, but as I said it's quickly too much and then reverso, harness, auxiliary cord comes along. Recently I practiced abseil, knots at home. But still doing this alone in mountains is risky. So do you carry rope in summer too?
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| viharnik10. 02. 2013 07:56:48 |
With that diameter "rope" you can only go fishing for pike with a float on Cerknica?
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| lijaneja10. 02. 2013 08:28:29 |
---only if the hook grabs the head, it's also in danger.
LG, for pathless terrain I drag 40m of 8 with me, otherwise I've used it very rarely, but it always comes in handy for descent from VR in the lower part to the saddle with SR.
Good rope - bond with life.
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| viharnik10. 02. 2013 08:59:19 |
LG, I use rope MAMMUT Phoenix 8.0 coating finish, super dry, myclimate, LapCoiled, length 60m, UIAA falls 8-9, impact force 6.0kN, elongation after first fall 31%, weight 41g/m, 60m=2460g. Rope is light, long enough for climbing (ice, rock), is soft and handles well, flows, adjusts.
Optionally suitable for:
Mixed and Iceclimbing, Multipitch Rockclimbing.
Suitable for:
Classical Alpinism.
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| dprapr10. 02. 2013 09:41:32 |
For belaying on a wall, single or double rope is used. As far as I know, the thinnest single rope is 8.7mm diameter. 8mm rope is used only in glacier teams, for rappelling or climbing with double rope. For belaying though - experts say - rope should be used already in grade II difficulty. Of course it depends on the individual, their knowledge, abilities and experience. This definitely applies to beginners in climbing or off-trail hiking.
Rope lengths are also different. 30 years ago 40m 11mm rope was used. Later 50m rope, now ropes from 60m onwards and various diameters depending on use. I definitely recommend at least 30m rope, as with shorter you won't help much. And appropriate diameter of course. For rappelling you'll need longer rope in many places. Last time you mentioned ascent to ŠP - there for descent under the amphitheater you need 60m rope!
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| snork10. 02. 2013 10:46:09 |
LG 0.8mm....0.5mm
as @viharnik wrote to you
Regards Klemen
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| neph10. 02. 2013 16:25:01 |
Mountain lover, start using rope in mountains when you exactly(!) know what you're doing. Otherwise, in my opinion, better not to have it. I'm surprised no one before me wrote this, especially since you're asking total basics.
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| janez.novak10. 02. 2013 17:25:36 |
Given how many mountain lovers hike in the hills, I think he didn't mean 0.5 or 0.8 mm - it must be a typo, as everyone knows that's just thin "string".
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| jedriličar10. 02. 2013 19:31:05 |
Beal Golden Dry rope, 60m, 8.1mm is my silent shadow, wherever I go so does it .... highly recommend ... plus a pair of quickdraws, reverso, couple of carabiners, lockers, and you can go anywhere ... And of course helmet on the head, but first learn how to use the stuff (I assume you know ...). My advice: don't buy dubious ropes, good rope can be found from about 120 EUR up, not worth saving there ...
Safe in the mountains and regards
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| viharnik10. 02. 2013 21:20:32 |
I've also heard that a bunch of some ropes from the east are appearing on the market, even promoted under known brands, but they feel quite rough already. They're usually heavier, quite hard and inflexible, but cheap.Quality and safety first, price least.
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| 1mitjas10. 02. 2013 21:46:11 |
Jedriličar, given the rope diameter it's a double rope. It's used in pairs, clipped alternately into quickdraws. Single piece is false security, as it's not tested separately and can break.
Ropes on coils are usually not climbing ropes, but accessory cords (for making anchors for rappels)
8mm rope for glacier is not ok, if you fall in crevasse you fall far and for falls you need single rope.
Read something before use, and as neph wrote, what's the rope good for if you have no idea about rope technique.
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| Zebdi11. 02. 2013 08:12:23 |
@viharnik: which ropes from the east do you mean? So far Edelweiss was by far the worst rope I've had. Otherwise light and soft to handle, but lasted just one year...
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| Močerad11. 02. 2013 11:09:52 |
Well, this debate about ropes has gone in an interesting direction. 
@Zebdi: I've heard similar about Edelweiss too.
@viharnik: First time I hear that, but I'd like to add that I've heard quite a few criticisms (from users) for single ropes of Tendon brand (Master model). Sheath supposedly delaminates very quickly from the core. I own a double Tendon rope myself and so far satisfied. Of course bad experiences with the mentioned brand could just be coincidence  .
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| Sam.volk11. 02. 2013 12:24:01 |
I think LG is a fisherman not a mountaineer. Lp
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| Daaam11. 02. 2013 13:18:07 |
Well desc (LG) just mistyped a bit..we know what thickness he meant,...so he won't get nailed to the cross for that now..
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