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| joža x9. 02. 2011 17:13:24 |
Trampling through pathless areas and unmarked trails affects nature more harmfully than snowmobiles, which also get on my nerves. Not to speak of detailed descriptions of pathless terrain and unmarked trails on the net and then such ones would criticize snowmobilers.
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| turbo9. 02. 2011 17:23:06 |
I don't understand and don't understand. Joža x, there's a meadow there and I go across it into the forest. Parallel to me, snowmobiles are driving to the edge of the forest. How the hell do I affect nature more harmfully? I don't run on gasoline, I don't make noise, that little carbon footprint I exhale can't even be measured. Really, I don't understand such comparisons and don't understand.
Regarding pathless areas, like this, poor those who have been writing books about pathless terrain and easier climbs for years. Aren't they ashamed that with descriptions they spoil the mountaineering population and at the same time harmfully affect nature. Pfeh.
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| joža x9. 02. 2011 17:37:51 |
There are fewer and fewer oases in the mountains where "hikers" wouldn't go regularly, there nature still functions on its own, there are perhaps still really wild animals somewhere, snowmobilers won't break through those impossible pathless areas, in areas where they drive the pristine nature has already disappeared, also because of hikers. So if someone discovers some "wonder of nature" let it be his wonder, why reveal it (brag) to the whole world, because then it won't be his quiet corner anymore and he'll have to look for new and new ones and...
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| jprim9. 02. 2011 17:51:38 |
joža x
... I have to chime in and tell you that in your comments you're mixing apples and oranges ... at least understand that, what I just wrote. ...
Best regards!
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| joža x9. 02. 2011 18:05:06 |
jprim "I'm withdrawing from the debate I started" but is that yours? I think the question is what destroys nature more, what bothers hikers I don't care one ... and I didn't mix anything. I'm only concerned about nature and that every day.
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| IgorZlodej9. 02. 2011 18:11:23 |
We're all on thin ice, as someone wrote, so we can also do something sometimes and some do: http://www.gore-ljudje.net/novosti/7487/ so that philosophizing gets slightly on my ... and I found something else: http://www.gore-ljudje.net/novosti/3995/ You want pristine nature, but drink milk from cows that eat moldy pig slop stored in plastic foil, lying everywhere in our beautiful country, and you do nothing. Alpine pastures are extinct, look at Carnia a bit, huge pastures, roads to them, no snowmobilers but everything runs fine. Subalpine morals like that.
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| biso10. 02. 2011 07:36:50 |
Bravo, joža x and Igor Zlodej!
For the little angels who don't harm nature (at least they think they don't, although they drive a lot on it), the time will come when they wake up from their dreams.
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| GregorC10. 02. 2011 09:18:20 |
If snowmobiles are a problem, I don't know why car traffic in various alpine valleys, on pastures and such isn't a problem. No problem with cars to Planinsko Blato, Velika Planina, Preval and I could list more. The problem is snowmobilers who drive on snow and aren't even in contact with the ground. As for noise, it's just as annoying as the noise of a horde of hikers in summer time in our mountains. And I think more mess is left behind those hikers than snowmobilers.
And I repeat once again, I'm not enthusiastic about such activity.
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| biso10. 02. 2011 10:05:54 |
Matta, this is definitely a mountaineering forum, the difference between us is only that some are aware that also with driving to starting points, walking on trails (and even more on pathless terrain) we harm nature and destroy it (=scare away animals) and we don't (anymore) point fingers at others who enjoy the same nature differently than us.
It stinks of gasoline after all, just that for "good and aware mountaineers" a bit less (often even more!) than for "all condemnable" snowmobilers.
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| Zebdi10. 02. 2011 10:22:32 |
matta, don't dramatize. In the most burdened/visited areas in our mountains there hasn't been any indescribable beauty for a long time anymore, but indescribable hustle and the consequences it brings with it. Unfortunately  Nature would relieve itself if the huts offered only the most necessary shelter, not (almost) hotel services, and motorized supply was abolished at the same time. The chamois doesn't care whether a snowmobiler passes by it or a helicopter flies past its head carrying trays of beer to Kredarica. It wouldn't hurt either if tours actually started in the valley and certain alpine areas were closed to traffic. But are we ready for that or does the comfort that the (over)frequent mountain huts provide us suit us too much? 
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| turbo10. 02. 2011 10:29:24 |
I'm really proud of myself. How many times I've already and how many more times I will quietly wander on my beloved pathless trails, all living things (flora and fauna) were and will be scared shitless when I get close to them for a short time. Interestingly, during these wanderings I manage to convince some chickadee to eat from my hand. Or a chamois to pose a few meters away. Or even a snake to keep sunbathing on the rock while I photograph it. I see and read that if I get a snowmobile in winter, my "dry" experiences in the snow will be even deeper. The animals will just flock to me when I gun it through the mountains and valleys higher up. And all happily breathing deeply, because I'll be fueling "blajfraj" 98 octane so it smells nice. And when I rumble down to the valley and the little animals head "home", a "winter pedestrian" around the corner will scare them to death who wanted some solitude. Yum yum, Kosobrin would say.
Anyway, pardon the expression, I don't give a damn about all this.
BISO, I hope you're nicely at home on the couch all the time. Immobile. Because if not, if you just move a little, you shit around so much that Greenpeace needs to be notified!!!
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| lynx10. 02. 2011 14:58:55 |
No matter how hard we try, we can't move like ninjas. Animals have much better perception than us and terrain advantage, so most times when we disturb them, we don't even know it. Not everything reacts as late and obviously as some perched bird that panics when you (un)knowingly get too close.
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| joža x10. 02. 2011 16:56:05 |
On 2.9.2010 J.Trogar published in current conditions that even locals don't know where Račka vrata are and it's like a needle in a haystack, now after his route publication, it looks like there will soon be a crowd there. There birds were chirping peacefully, chamois walking... soon probably: papers, dogs, hustle, fire, all because of one single trophy.... and there was no snowmobiler.
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| turbo10. 02. 2011 17:13:41 |
PP, Planica Pokljuka, wilderness. Descriptions on the net as many as you want. General, detailed, photos in detail. And it's still clean and wild and lonely there. And thank God, so many rocks..., that it's hard to get somewhere even on foot, let alone with sleds.
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| JusAvgustin10. 02. 2011 19:29:45 |
PP is a pearl that not everyone can get and that's right! Yes, with sleds you really can't get there
Otherwise it's like this, either you like it or you hate it... I fell in love with it to the end and walked a good part of it, this year the rest awaits me. I hope PP never has mass visits. You have to feel PP, search for it... only then can you walk it. If you're capable of finding the right passages of course
I'm not a fan of racing with snowmobiles, but it doesn't bother me that much either.
Turbo: we're trying not to reveal details on PP with photos, my mentor asked me that too! I respect his wish. Otherwise where there's detail you don't have time to photo
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| turbo10. 02. 2011 20:46:28 |
JusAvgustin, no panic 
Not only the PP that I've walked, I also have other hidden corners "safely" photographed. I don't share them. If someone asks me about pathless stuff, they get an answer, if I know them of course, via private message. Thank God you can still go to PP and many places above Trento and elsewhere for "bobki" and not for papers 
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| lingo10. 02. 2011 21:05:00 |
The forum is meant for sharing information, not hiding it. And by the way, you're totally off-topic
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| Santi11. 02. 2011 01:19:42 |
Well, otherwise PP isn't as unvisited as you think, just no posts, many have already walked it, verified...
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| turbo11. 02. 2011 09:11:31 |
Information is shared, of course. Especially via private messages regarding PP. Off topic, true. Like snowmobiles, the forum title.
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| ejca21. 02. 2011 10:30:20 |
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