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| jax21. 11. 2020 09:01:08 |
Anyway, I still don't know what we'd achieve with that, but okay.
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| jax21. 11. 2020 09:10:22 |
And what in 14 days? You lift it and then in 1 month repeat the exercise. Doesn't seem like a model of sensible policy to me.
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| andi221. 11. 2020 09:12:57 |
Primož, please don't additionally bombard the people and our forum, because it will burst. Breathe a little, don't look at media-manipulated graphs and come see it live once what the hospitalized numbers mean and where and why they come from. A huge amount of elevated numbers is infection of already hospitalized patients, DSO residents and inadequately protected staff. Because there is no real/successful plan to protect lives and health in the health system (maybe at such infection rate it no longer exists ). Orders rain down always a week late and with less and less logic. No money, except for bonuses for successful managerial work. It's also becoming clear that measures can't help because the virus probably spreads most effectively through air and like other viruses - most massively in winter and most contagiously a week before you get sick. And strictly limited to municipal borders of course Then stop the devil if you can. Going out every day for half an hour into the fresh air or filling up petrol at the nearest station across four municipalities here, according to my info hasn't harmed anyone yet. lp
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| jax21. 11. 2020 10:24:42 |
Well, I don't know ... To me your proposal seems exactly the same as what we had in spring. First we knocked the virus almost to zero, then over summer certain measures always remained - masks were mandatory in closed spaces except for one short period, disinfection was encouraged everywhere, catering places reduced capacity, summer events were in greatly reduced scope and practically no festivals, sports events took place without spectators or at most with greatly reduced attendance capacity, certain highest risk activities (e.g. night clubs) never reopened. In short, measures remained, don't say they didn't. But the virus came back, it would have anyway. Yes, true, people went on vacations. But look - vacations and relaxation belong to normal life. You can't claim you allow life on the house-work route and say then everything is normal. And we're where we are.
In short, your proposal doesn't seem much different to me from what we had in the first wave and what brought us here where we are.
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| andi221. 11. 2020 10:46:47 |
The virus is here anyway. And yes, not fake, as we thought at the beginning. Easiest is to pin responsibility on the ladies in DSO and hospitals who have to wipe my three times overweight and immobile aunt's nicely smelling ass multiple times a day, change diaper and feed her into her half-dead mouth. Because that's how you have to care for everyone until their long-expected death. Ugh, how high mortality we have in this population! Even if at the end just bone and skin from dementia, unworthy of the name of the person she once wonderfully represented. Similarly with schoolchildren - yeah, tsk, bad bad young ones because they want to socialize a bit and chat. And it doesn't matter if your director/principal didn't provide even the most basic equipment for quasi-protection from sun rays (somewhat comparable to virus sneaking around in winter). For the sun you then have two options. You can seal the house airtight and wait a year if the sun stops shining. Or be relaxed careful in critical hours of the day, use sunscreen when sensible and keep fingers crossed that you won't be that melanoma statistic. Especially not the one with melanoma and mortality. Well, there's one more option, but I won't bore with personal ideologies.
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| jax21. 11. 2020 13:05:02 |
The problem with this approach is that on one hand people adhere less to each next "wave", on the other hand the dynamic will become more pronounced that they will try to cram all parties, visits and trips into relaxation periods before they lock them down again. And that certainly isn't a healthy dynamic for fighting the virus.
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| jax21. 11. 2020 13:06:28 |
As for the answer to the question you asked andi, well - the data on this are being very much hidden somewhere, based on what can still be found out, including some insider info, I'd dare say predominantly yes.
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| andi221. 11. 2020 14:01:11 |
This will be very generalized, but yes - mostly very old and very sick people die, who at the end of life also have a confirmed concurrent infection. Well, of course there is some important group of exceptions that we can't explain. So it doesn't sound too light - the infection is still at least one degree harder than flu even for a young person and can leave ugly, permanent consequences on lung function. And also NEJM - vaccination, of course. Voluntary or forced (mandatory) to reach the needed 90% vaccination threshold? Otherwise you're back to flu and voluntary vaccination. They also need to coordinate a bit their pursuit of the highest IF and studies on chloroquine, remdesivir, hydrocortisone, vaccine from Pfizer/Astrazeneca/Nanotech/Moderna... My final bet is on Swiss Gilead. Because they have a nice name, enough money and for some month it won't be clear if too much rushing with vaccine means some unnecessary caused death. By then the financial plus will already be big enough.
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| andi221. 11. 2020 14:46:06 |
We all agree on that. But there's a high chance it won't decrease, despite measures. So at some point - don't additionally oppress and pressure normal people. Jax wrote well - they'll just start wildly living it up at the first opportunity. Because of that and because of managing the situation like - run across the minefield! That's an order!, in a year there will be a large group of deaths as a result of diseases that we normally know how to detect or treat very well in time. And of course the long-term impact of the virus on various organ systems, as you wrote, and on mortality of vulnerable groups (cancer patients, chronic disease patients, immunocompromised). And don't misunderstand me. Some measures are good. Some are necessary. Will they change the course of mass virus transmission - probably not. Because it's here. And because it's very unpredictably spread and deadly. In a much wider population than anyone can imagine. And it has nothing to do with Croatian sea. Well, or maybe it does, for good propaganda against evil neighbors and those queuing for shelves, as Dr.Ejci nicely mocked
P.s. One bizarre thing when we go to Lidl. Security guard quasi disinfects the cart at the entrance and per Lidl instructions orders you to grab that shitty huge thing and drive it around. When 30 disinfected carts run out, old and young stand in severe cold crowded one on another up to half an hour in front of the entrance. Yeah, go figure it.
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| andi221. 11. 2020 15:53:01 |
Yeah, people are different anyway. Some care, others don't. If we know how to coexist, we win.
To everyone lots of health and peace in nature in the coming months!
P. S.
I hope this doesn't come out bizarre, and I apologize in advance if it's not understandable to someone. Everyone today has to take care of their own ass.
Because internet anonymity doesn't exist and I don't want to be tomorrow with my above writings and name and surname on some political portal. Therefore: Everything I wrote on hribi.net is medically unverified record and info. I officially distance myself from my own writing if someone tries to use it to prove official opinion of the profession or state of health institutions in Slovenia.
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| turbo21. 11. 2020 16:27:26 |
I'm not ashamed of my name nor surname, nor embarrassed because of them, nor afraid of anything 
I don't know much about medicine, if anything, but I work in a hospital. This year I participated in such a project that I also moved around on COVID-19 wards, where during work like it or not (allowed or not) you at least glance at the patient or patient. When you see that misery, when you see the effort of medical staff, you lose the desire to do anything on your own. If nothing else, out of respect for the sick and those who care for them. All the above philosophizing is superfluous when you're familiar with the situation live, probably even more when or if you get sick yourself. I don't wear a mask outside to make it look like I respect the orders. I don't disinfect my hands because of regulations either. And I don't do some other things because they ordered so, but because I take care of myself and perhaps even more to show that I care about others. People I meet without mask, who stand in line right behind me and such, I pity in their narrow-mindedness and self-delusion, so there's no point getting angry at them. They wouldn't understand me anyway. Sooner or later we'll get a second battle (second wave), but I'm afraid there will be some more defeats before we manage the war.
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| andi221. 11. 2020 16:56:40 |
Turbo - I'm also not ashamed of my name and surname, even less of all the titles before and after them. I also never needed to sneak peeks at Covid patients and I don't like philosophizing after just recovered from a severe course infection (got sick despite rigorous adherence to measures). But it doesn't help me if things are unfortunately as I wrote. And even less if tomorrow some obnoxious journalist with questionable moral integrity exposes me because of what I wrote. Because Covid has also become an important propaganda arena for interests of finance, media and politics. We're losing the battle because measures can't stop the virus. Because otherwise we'd all have to be locked in the most modern spacesuit 24h a day for the next year and a half. And precisely because of that we'll hit rock bottom at some point, bounce back and win. Until then, use your head, don't argue and as massively as possible adhere to useful measures - you listed them nicely too. lp
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| Sorok22. 11. 2020 14:11:35 |
Otherwise I went into quarantine from this forum but anyway: Bojan bravo!
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| dprapr22. 11. 2020 16:28:41 |
Andi2, we don't know what gender you are. And there are many like you on this forum. Then it's hard to generalize that there are more arguments among male users.
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| andi222. 11. 2020 16:56:00 |
Yeah, drapr, I don't know. Based on my six years of posts and greetings at the end of every post with lp, Andrej, I'll be easiest to slot into the trans sphere. For others I don't know. Some woman will speak up if I've wronged her. Only ten years to wait
And for Primož - those smart ones introduced a special category just for me in this debate - well-dressed man
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| turbo22. 11. 2020 17:41:39 |
I don't follow that part of the debate because I have the "butelj filter" enabled.
How the hell do you then read what you write 
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| andi222. 11. 2020 17:52:52 |
Here's one more for laughs, then I'll bow out of the men's debate.
Official gender ID of user andi2/Andrej: male.
Can't provide photo proof of gender for one of these reasons (pick right): a) hribi.net profile doesn't allow pics emphasizing size of displayed object; b) posting that kind of pic would indirectly lead to mass ID of my name and surname; c) photo evidence doesn't go back to hribi.net launch year (2007) depriving forum old-timers chance to objectively judge my personality and gender.
Enough joking now, cartoons then bed lp, Andrej
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| lingo22. 11. 2020 20:26:00 |
@turbo: How the hell do you read what you write then?
hahahahaha
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