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Safety in the mountains

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julius10. 09. 2013 11:48:23
Dear folks!
What is written below does not apply to Igor Zlodjej, because his experiences and knowledge of the mountains are really way above the level of the others who are pontificating on this forum.
It's really interesting how quickly some "very, very experienced" ones pop up who superficially skimmed what was written and rushed to pontificate.
What the actual level of visitors to Slovenian mountains is can be seen already in the results of the poll on this forum, not to mention all other issues (knowledge of mountains, clothing, footwear, boozing, unpreparedness etc..)
Unfortunately, Czechs and Slovaks have overtaken us in all the above, not to mention Croats.
Let's get back to the main topic. The directional sign is there to guide you and to get all the data about the path on it. That's how it's arranged abroad too and that's what the hiking trails law says. If a path is closed it must be clearly visible already at the starting points and period (the law specifies how the closure must be marked). No Balkan-style excuse here.
And how will the path manager and the associated PZS explain all our wisecracking to angry foreign mountaineers at Planja saddle? Will they say "sorry, we're just joking"?
Why do you think so many get lost in the mountains? Don't guess, go to the mountains to less crowded peaks and paths and look. How is it marked? Where are the directional signs? How overgrown are the paths? How for years and years no one removes fallen trees?
In one word - big shame.

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Daaam10. 09. 2013 12:34:18
@julius: You're making a mountain out of a molehill. If right now (I don't know) at Planja saddle there's a notice about the closed path to Razor, that's it. Well, mountains/conditions change and if someone had to turn back at the saddle, or had to settle for "just" Planja, so be it. These are mountains, not a shopping mall where every beam is marked with fluorescent tape. Would you really want such paths? I really don't know why there's a stronger trend that people want/have all information served on a platter. As mentioned above, preparation for the trip is key for the inexperienced, those with lots of mileage in the mountains anyway know how things work and won't be grumpy because of a missing sign anywhere. And of course abroad not all paths (less known) are perfectly maintained.
The quote you cite: "Don't guess, go to the mountains to less crowded peaks and paths and look. How is it marked? Where are the directional signs? How overgrown are the paths? How for years no one removes fallen trees?" is almost a bit funny, because I think most who replied to you actually only hike less crowded peaks, poorly or unmarked paths ..and yeah happily sometimes climb over a fallen tree nasmeh

No hard feelings
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zdomec10. 09. 2013 13:06:54
100 women and big circus on Triglav

This weekend there was again the famous hike "100 women on Triglav". This hike, about 50 years ago, had a completely different purpose and mission. But today, when I look at those pictures and the description of the event in the red magazine, I'm angry and sad. This hike is completely commercialized and has only one purpose. Marketing promotion of various products and companies. Please don't get hot blooded, this is just my personal opinion.
They even dragged the MILK queen up there.

no hard feelingsjezenjezenjezen
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JusAvgustin10. 09. 2013 13:47:02
Wait, did the cow go to Triglav?!eek Poor beast!
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mpurg10. 09. 2013 17:05:57
I agree with zdomec...mountains are not a highway!!! No peace anywhere anymore!
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Trobec10. 09. 2013 18:10:43
@julius, you have to realize that path markers are volunteers and you can't expect them to remove every fallen tree the next day. According to PZS norms, 10km path per marker, reality is a bit different and there are more km (in our PD 20km). And as Daaam already wrote, mountain paths are mountain paths, not a shopping center. Sure, some places are poorly or doubtfully marked, but as I wrote, it's impossible to fix all deficiencies overnight, some things just take longer to sort out.

When you mention shame in front of foreigners...I don't know how much you've hiked abroad, but our hiking paths are generally very well maintained compared to many other countries.

@zdomec, fully agree. The whole Triglav is too commercialized, including nearby huts (Kredarica, Planika...). I don't even want to imagine what Kredarica looks like say on 15.8.
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ljubitelj gora15. 09. 2013 21:56:49
Mountaineering is not a Sunday picnic
This year mountain rescuers record an increase in rescues of uninjured alpinists. Where are the mistakes?

In the last three years, the mountain rescue service has recorded an increase in climber accidents – but in the last year, interventions stand out where they rescued uninjured alpinists.

Jani Bele, president of the information and analysis commission at the Mountain Rescue Association of Slovenia (GRZS), explained to us that one reason is that climbers often overestimate their abilities. They learn climbing on artificial walls, but don't consider that it's something completely different from climbing a natural wall. So for example in an artificial wall – where they master even harder routes – they can return quickly, in a natural wall where they climb say 400 or 500 meters, such a return is more difficult.

Another reason is late entry into the route, they only consider the estimated climbing time, but not that something can go wrong during climbing, that they can quickly get off track and lose the route. Therefore they don't take gear they would need for bivouacking, don't take flashlights, extra clothes. It happens that night catches alpinists due to late entry – night rescues are especially demanding.
Relying on "they will come anyway"

According to Bele, alpinists' training is not the cause of problems, as "schools in Slovenia are among the best".

Gear and preparedness are thus not a problem, but the attitude has changed. "These are probably modern times when the view of alpinism is different too," says Bele. He estimates that the attitude has changed: "In the past we did everything before calling for help, now they call rescuers very quickly."
Issuing invoices is not a solution

Issuing invoices for rescues a few years ago did not prove effective – in some cases even a negative effect showed, as they delayed calling too long because they didn't want to pay. In a few cases it turned out they issued an invoice, but later it turned out alpinists acted completely correctly, but just got stuck. According to Bele, this area needs systemic regulation and precise definition of what "gross negligence" means. The costs of helicopter rescue where participants are not injured are not covered by health insurance anyway.

Bele points out that this year despite a larger number of alpinists, no fatal case was recorded.


Some recent rescues:

Descent at one at night

One of the night interventions rescuers carried out last Sunday. Three alpinists called for help just before one at night, as during descent under the north face of Mala Mojstrovka they were no longer sure if they were on the right path.

As Grega Oblak, member of GRS Kranjska Gora, told us, he and his co-rescuer went to meet the alpinists, when they saw their lights, they knew they were in the right gully. "They were mainly looking for information, but no one could tell them quite correctly. They were top-equipped. They themselves knew where they made the mistake," explained Oblak.

He says the alpinists did most of the work themselves, they were equipped for bivouacking, but decided to descend due to possible weather deterioration the next day. The rescuers waited for them under the wall and then escorted them to Vršič.

This time everything ended happily, but as Oblak says, they should have finished climbing earlier, they entered the wall at nine o'clock.


Friends hurried on

The day before, last Saturday, GRS Celje rescuers tackled a night rescue. In the evening hours at Okrešelj there were nine rescuers who in the evening got notice that two female climbers were in trouble in the wall of Mala Rinka. They were about 150 meters below the top of the wall and inadequately dressed to spend the night in the wall. They helped them out of the wall using rope technique, roped they escorted them through Turski žleb and then to Okrešelj. "This was one of the more difficult rescue actions due to loaded scree at the top of the wall and crumbly last pitch of direct exit from the route, mainly due to darkness, as everything happened in the glow of headlamps," wrote Brane Povše on the GRZS website.

The female climbers were otherwise in the company of colleagues from the alpinism section, who however didn't wait for them, as they went climbing to Klemenča Peč the next day.

Inadequate team

The rescue of two hikers who got stuck on Skuta on the last day of August also took place in the late evening hours. They were rescued by GRS Kamnik rescuers and duty teams from Brnik GRS in cooperation with the Slovenian army helicopter. This time the intervention was caused by inappropriately chosen target regarding abilities and inexperience of the climbing team.

Stuck below Špik summit

On August 11 in the afternoon two alpinists got stuck below Špik summit. With the help of the winch they lifted them into the helicopter and transported them uninjured to the valley.


60 meters on steel cable and telescopic pole

They also carried out a demanding rescue action at the beginning of August in Triglav north face. In Čopov steber two hikers got stuck, the duty team GRS Brnik and Slovenian army helicopter crew intervened. They received notice around 19:30 and flew towards the wall. However, they had to interrupt the rescue due to wind that doesn't allow helicopter hovering. They successfully carried out the rescue the next day.

As Boštjan Griljc wrote, the wall in this part is extremely steep. Even though the helicopter approached as close as possible, the rescuer still had to descend 60 meters on the steel cable, and had to use a telescopic pole to reach the climbers.

Source: http://www.zurnal24.si/alpinizem-ni-nedeljski-piknik-clanek-205683
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JusAvgustin16. 09. 2013 05:40:16
How can two hikers get stuck in Čopov steber?! And two alpinists in Špik? It's obvious that those who write these contributions (in this case žurnala24 journalist) have no idea who is who, or can't distinguish apples from pears! Very instructive article! The wall is not a kindergarten! If you don't respect that sooner or later you get it in the ***! In this case more is better than less and not less is more!
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zippo16. 09. 2013 08:04:31
Some ignorance, some inconsistency in reporting.

Hikers in Čop, that's really good and I remembered how years ago I led a group from work. When we stood behind Aljažev dom in front of the Wall board where routes are drawn, a colleague asked which one we would take. I said none, and she was quite surprised velik nasmeh We of course just went over Prag
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VanSims23. 09. 2013 14:02:24
When I was driving this Saturday through Ziljska dolina to Plöckenpass (for Cellon), I heard an interesting story on Carinthian radio about 'rescue' of a Slovenian citizen in the Maltatal area.

http://www.kleinezeitung.at/kaernten/spittal/spittal_an_der_drau/3414781/vermisster-fuhr-dem-zug-heim.story

Slovenians of course... mežikanje
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JusAvgustin23. 09. 2013 14:08:28
hehejezik
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lizika23. 09. 2013 16:40:21
Hey, I'd like to see you two when you're old jezen what orphans you'd be then jezen
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VanSims23. 09. 2013 18:22:04
I'm just surprised they couldn't count who was missing a neighbor,... before leaving (as is custom on group trips) from there and realize right away that someone was missing. They could have maybe reached him by mobile (OK, signal there maybe doesn't catch). I don't know how they could just drive off without him, and he, when he arrived in Gmünd, didn't even call someone from them or report to the police. They simply each went their own way, rescuers searched... a bit incomprehensible.

Offtopic: are our rescue helicopters equipped with infrared cameras for night search?
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pohodnik3823. 09. 2013 20:05:28
I think not since rescue with helicopters happens with us only in the visible part of the day... there exists a heli in Slovenia which has all possible devices from infrared to a strong reflector; only that one is not used for rescue... for calming demonstrators, fans, etc.
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IgorZlodej24. 09. 2013 05:38:05
Thermal imaging has already been used several times in searches for missing persons, likewise night rescues have been carried out, just so you know. Of course certain conditions are needed for night flying.
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viharnik24. 09. 2013 19:46:05
Apparently they searched for missing tourists in Bohinj triangle with thermal imaging too.
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Becar24. 09. 2013 21:38:56
Let some pair up there get pulled into Bohinj triangle, no harm done.
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herman829. 09. 2013 08:13:14
A few Saturdays ago a mountain guide from Zasavje took 17 hikers to Prisojnik. I'm wondering if that's normal or what the PZS norm is. One of the participants got injured and had to go for stitches in Jesenice. Years ago I read about a tragic accident on Košutnikov Turn where there were many hike participants too.
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viharnik29. 09. 2013 08:38:36
They say that from excess the head doesn't hurt. Otherwise on harder tours it's customary a smaller, even specified number of climbers in the group depending on belaying possibilities and meetings on the mountain. A role also plays the required speed of tour execution due to mountain specifics.
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1mitjas29. 09. 2013 08:50:54
Hi

I doubt the guide was a mountain one. We don't have exactly set norms but most of us accepted for such paths norm 4 guests per one guide.

Regards
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