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Safety in the mountains

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viharnik8. 08. 2013 13:42:12
If we start from the spiritual essences of man, man himself doesn't differ substantially from another. Emotions, feelings, perceptions, joy we have similar, so the mountain itself can't play the role of greater or lesser satisfaction. Someone can be happier just with a view of the mountains from a high pass he drove to by car. Another enjoys the ascent by bike, the third opened a new route in the wall.
Finally, divine justice says that the greater the perception with a pure spirit in us and around us, the greater the satisfaction, happiness, joy that arises. So someone who is spiritual doesn't need to compete, to prove himself, because he has no ego that would need confirmation through it. It's enough for him to look around at nature and merge with it into one harmony. So mountaineers without ego would all say in one voice that they enjoyed the mountains and none would say they enjoyed more or less, regardless of whether they just walked or climbed.
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jesihar8. 08. 2013 15:16:06
andrej.bg, I don't agree that the signs should also contain the name of the place where you are. If you don't find out beforehand where you'll be going in a reliable guidebook, or if you do it without a map or basic orientation knowledge, that's the individual's problem, not the marker's responsibility.

I also don't agree that the path time estimate should include the time you spend sitting and taking photos. Where would we end up with estimates if we incorporated that time too?

In my opinion, the time estimates aren't set too wrong. Some basic fitness - especially on longer tours - is expected from a hillwalker.

And no summit is obligatory. That's not elitism. If Jalovec is too tough a nut for you, you just don't go there.
So someone else who was on Jalovec might not go to Vevnica. And won't feel any worse for it.
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dprapr8. 08. 2013 17:19:25
Nowhere does it say that every mountaineer must complete the SPP! Why burden ourselves with that? Most of us started on this path, few probably completed the whole trail. In Slovenia there are plenty of different paths of different difficulties and we unnecessarily burden ourselves with SPP. And if someone can't reach Jalovec, it's no tragedy. Jalovec is beautiful also from the valley or from Slemena, Cipernika, Plešivca,..., which are accessible to many.
It's never good to burden oneself with a specific goal, especially not one that's not achievable for us. When there are so many others that are even more tempting.
And hiking and climbing in mountains is no "privilege of chosen lucky ones"! Privilege is if health and financial position allow us to go to the mountains occasionally. Our duty is to prepare partially at home for the tour, as @primoža says. Then on the tour itself there are fewer annoyances and more enjoyment.
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IgorZlodej8. 08. 2013 18:04:28
I pretty much fully agree with @dprapr, SPP is no measure at all, although long ago I had that transversal booklet, it doesn't bother me at all if I never find it again. 50 days in mountains or 50 ascents is very, very little, but everyone as Drago wrote according to possibilities and abilities. It's true though that only the quantity of diverse ascents, including winter ones, makes a real mountaineer, all others will stay at the level of Sunday hiker, unfortunately that's how it is. Reading guidebooks, looking at maps, familiarizing with descriptions contributes a lot to preparation, of course also appropriate psychophysical readiness, self-knowledge and path knowledge. Lately quite a few people have collapsed either on mountain paths or in walls, which shows people overestimate themselves, add extreme temperatures, lack of fitness, improper nutrition and too little fluid and then the solution is only calling 112, but that's actually negligence of the individual or group leader who didn't prepare properly for the tour. Weather won't be ideal forever either, although this isn't at all, one must choose shady areas, definitely not start where sun heats early, or where we'll be exposed to heat all time, so ridge traverses, eastern and southern slopes etc. are out. To choose correctly, we must also know the mountain geographically, which is already a substantial problem for some. In short, mountains aren't entirely easy, so even greater preparation is needed. Good luck to all in the coming days in the mountains.
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ljubitelj gora8. 08. 2013 22:17:05
Sorry Igor "50 days in the mountains or 50 ascents is very, very little". Not all of us are near the mountains, to Bovec I have 100km and 2 hours drive one way, if I were a local I'd surely do many more ascents yearly in dry, snowy conditions. But these 100km aren't that much compared to those from Maribor to Bovec who have 250km and 3 hours drive of which 2 hours highway. If you're a local under the mountains, be it living in Kamnik or Radovljica or Bovec you can go multiple times on afternoon tours, but I can at least console myself that to Koper I have 1 hour drivevelik nasmeh
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FLEKSARCA8. 08. 2013 22:25:20
Wow LG, for this post I'll give you a big + too.
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panda9. 08. 2013 07:17:24
Me too. nasmeh
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Becar9. 08. 2013 08:48:12
The funniest thing about all this is that the so-called Sunday hikers pay for the existence of full-time hikers, so they can have 200 days of annual leave and so they can shit on us here on the forum. When you ask them about snow conditions on the trail, they don't think it's worth writing one sentence. Aha, if it were too safe, they'd run out of work. Yuck. The beauties of the mountains, that's Slovenia. People's perversion, that's Slovenia too!
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Katja669. 08. 2013 09:11:23
50 hikes per year?

Yes, depends where you're from, for me 100 times a year to the sea is no problem, when the sea is 15 min away.
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jedriličar9. 08. 2013 11:21:09
I think we all should take a step back a bit ... as I see Igor didn't mention 50 tours per year anywhere, what did you all latch onto, he just clearly defined the difference from the Sunday hiker, as Becar says and the mountaineer (difference is in everything, from preparation of ascent/trip to experience and execution). How many times have we witnessed here on the forum people asking questions without bothering to check a few pages back and gather basic info on the tour they plan? And how many times Igor and others patiently answered such questions first, and those guys probably don't even have a map at home.... As for the number of annual tours, if mine require 300-400 km drive I do 25-30 per year, don't see why someone living much closer wouldn't do at least half ... tours make the experienced mountaineer, not sitting in front of computer ...
Have a nice weekend everyone nasmeh
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Becar9. 08. 2013 12:13:59
Jedriličar, don't stir up nonsense about who doesn't look at mountaineering maps etc. Since when is there snow patch info on maps? And who didn't check a few pages back for snow? Luckily there are hikers who without complications say if there's snow somewhere or not. Thanks to them, to the others I can say where did you come from, because I don't meet such rude people in the mountains.
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VanSims9. 08. 2013 12:19:37
I also understood Igor as meaning 50 hikes in general and NOT per year. Well, I think I've already reached them or at least approaching. mežikanje

Of course these aren't hikes to small hills, these count as hikes to 2000m+ and above. And not just your home 2000m but various ones. Variety of routes by difficulty, orientation, fitness,... possibly some winter ones too (those I'm still missing).

I agree with @jedriličar too.
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jedriličar9. 08. 2013 12:25:42
@Becar - on snow patches I agree, that's changing info, but everything else .... just need to read back a bit ....
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panda9. 08. 2013 12:28:03
I also understood: 50 ascents in general, not time-bound. If I add mine up, there are over 70 in high mountains (though didn't count repeats), satisfied with the number and soul fulfilled; if I add annual ~50 visits to Boč and Donačka gora, the measure is full. More time doesn't allow. And I'm not competing at any cost to make the number higher. nasmeh
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Becar9. 08. 2013 13:41:49
Jedrilicar, I won't make a whole story out of it, but still... that I should buy crampons and ice axe beginning of August on SOMEONE's advice, because SOMEONE can't tell me on a perfectly polite question if there's snow on the way to Jalovec, that's a bit too much for my tolerance threshold. jezen

But thanks to @janna who didn't mind writing ZS and explaining the conditions. Also on the Jalovec trail itself I met only friendly hikers and very hospitable caretakers. Thank God it's like that. If I met such as appear here on forum, I'd stop going to mountains right away!!!

And about literature and maps. Jedrilicar, if you need a map to borrow, say, I have a big collection, also books, magazines, guides, handbooks. So don't put everyone in one basket.
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jedriličar9. 08. 2013 14:13:56
Then I don't understand at all why you felt hit by what I wrote? Obviously it didn't apply to you, right?
And if you need something from literature, I'm at your service ...
Just a small part of the literature ....1
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Katja669. 08. 2013 14:21:29
I'm going to cool off in the sea.
This debate doesn't make much sense anymore....
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Zebdi9. 08. 2013 14:25:23
Becar, I didn't feel like Jedriličar had anything against you either. Read his posts again; it could be you misunderstood him mežikanje
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dprapr9. 08. 2013 15:22:38
I don't know why this number 50 is so controversial. If someone lives under the mountains, it seems too little to me per year. No need to be free all day to do a tour if you drive to the foot of the mountain in 20 minutes.
Since I'm one of those whose mountains are concretely distant, I can't add up these numbers. If persistent, I get close to half. Of course ascents to nearby Pohorje not included, which can be done after or before work.
Anyway, Igor is right when he says you become a real mountaineer only with diverse ascents in different seasons. And then you're no longer interested if there's snow on the path, but rejoice in it because ascent and descent are mostly easier on it.
Maybe it's that we're too impatient and want to skim all the cream at the start. For some with "all options and abilities" it happens, for most not.
I too sometimes wonder how some manage to be in mountains so often (financially and time-wise), but there's always a background we don't know. And to just condemn someone for going to mountains on our money is a bit too much!
Ultimately the number of ascents doesn't matter at all, but that we fully lived every day we were "up there"!
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mukica9. 08. 2013 19:24:00
@dprapr, this time a veeeeery big + to you
nasmehnasmehnasmeh
I have similar thoughts, people are different and that's right because it makes us different and interestingmežikanje
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