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"This is how we have it" in Jesenice

GregorC5. 02. 2015 13:26:26

Awful!
VanSims and Heinz, such things as are shown here in the video are common elsewhere and often seen. It's like skateboarding in summer. Only with us such activities are quickly labeled as hooliganism and we only look for ways to fine them (in the financial sense, of course).
By the way, skiing on objects is even an Olympic sport (I know one is an organized race on courses, the other is this, but basically it's that).

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jax5. 02. 2015 13:57:20

GregorC, I fully agree.

As for paying rescue and treatment costs, here's this: rescue costs are one thing. They can be really high for certain activities and it's probably not reasonable to expect insurances or states to cover everything. So, I'm all for GRZS not rescuing everything for free a priori here too or introducing an insurance system like abroad (though some borderline cases would need agreement). But in this case it's not such a problem - after all the guys are in the city and if something serious happened to someone, a buddy would probably take him to hospital, otherwise regular EMS. So - no special rescue costs arise for such activities.
As for treatment costs, we must be principled. The basic premise of public health system is that if someone needs a health service, they can get it. As simple as that. If they had to visit a duty moralist before the doctor who would judge based on lifestyle whether entitled to treatment, that would be collapse of public health entirely, and we simply can't know where that judging would end. Of course services can be rationalized based on standards, but the basis must remain that all are entitled to them. Otherwise we're on such slippery ground that it's questionable if public health system makes sense at all.

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VanSims5. 02. 2015 14:16:52

@GregorC: I didn't moralize at all, everyone should do what they want, as long as they don't endanger others. That's my basic principle: 'Live and let live'. And I know, I've seen many videos from abroad on this topic including e.g. the 'madman' who was rolling downhill on the Autobahn in Germany eek

, I happen to know where that section is between Ulm and Stuttgart where the highway splits into two parts in each direction and I could imagine the thrill. big grin

- well that one was endangering others too. I just think it's inappropriate that we all pay if something happens.

@jax: There's a general difference if something really happens to someone by accident or they get sick versus someone tempting fate. Even in the mountains we actually tempt fate, that's why there are insurances abroad because society isn't willing to cover your tempting and we should introduce them here too.

Why do you think they charge tax on cigarettes and alcohol in the west, more expensive insurance for smokers,... and insurances that cover adrenaline sports which regular insurances there don't,... Everyone should do what they want but take responsibility for it. Financially too...

GregorC5. 02. 2015 14:28:05

So stick to that principle: live and let live.
As for taxes, we also pay a substantial tax on alcohol (wine is the exception), tobacco and other things here. We call it excise duty here.

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jax5. 02. 2015 14:59:25

@vansims:
and insurances that cover adrenaline sports which regular insurances there don't,... Everyone should do what they want but take responsibility for it. Financially too...

This didn't give me peace, so I went to check it. For example I took perhaps the most famous example of public health financing, the English NHS. And I found out you are wrong. This system covers everything, regardless of where the injuries occurred. See for example this:
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?199307-Extreme-Sport-and-the-NHS
In reality the debates are very similar to ours. Some claim it's not fair, but most there still realize that it's precisely this generality on which the system stands or falls. What you're talking about are accident insurances, where insurers everywhere (including here) have the right to calculate premiums based on risk factors. But that has nothing to do with the public health system.
As for the tax on cigarettes and alcohol, GregorC already told you. We have it here too, and quite high (I think cigarettes and alcohol along with petroleum products are the most taxed goods here).

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VanSims5. 02. 2015 16:00:20

Accident insurances cover costs before (transport) and after treatment (disability, inability to work and in the extreme case funeral). And those are customary and self-evident abroad. We know how much rescue in Austria costs without insurance. 2000 EUR or something like that.

As for health insurance: in America it also goes through insurers and there those with risk factors (smoking, alcohol, obesity, medical history and probably extreme lifestyle too) actually pay higher insurance. If it turns out that some disease or injury is connected to the listed factors or those that the insurer defines as risky, the insurer may not reimburse treatment costs if you didn't report those factors when signing the policy.

@GregorC: Let others stick to the principle: live and leave my wallet alone!

Excise duties here are small compared to similar taxes in the west. Why in Austria and Italy can't you get beer under 3 EUR in a pub anywhere while prices in stores are about the same as here? And cigarettes are much more expensive too - I don't smoke but once I was with a friend who was still smoking then in Austria and we looked at cigarette prices on some vending machine and they seemed quite expensive compared to us. Wine is the exception only here.

jax5. 02. 2015 16:10:39

@vansims:
I agree with most. As I wrote above, I have nothing against changing the organization and financing of GRZS.
As for the American health system, you're right of course. But I hope you don't want such a system here too. Such an arrangement is the most expensive in the world (yes, much more expensive than European variants that maybe cover some injury due to the injured person's own fault) and definitely one of the least socially just. So, I don't know where its advantages are, except ideological ones. And I think that's the point. Savings from possibly excluding risky activities from the health insurance system would be almost negligible, consequences in terms of undermining the entire public health system unpredictable and potentially very large.
As for excise duties on alcohol and cigarettes: regarding cigarettes you're probably right. Regarding alcohol I wouldn't judge so quickly. The fact is that beer prices (if we're at it) in stores in Austria and Italy don't differ much from Slovenia. Prices are higher only in pubs, which makes me think the difference is not in higher taxation but mainly in higher margins of innkeepers, which is a result of higher operating costs, especially labor costs.

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VanSims5. 02. 2015 16:29:26

As for beer prices in pubs you might be right.

As for the American system of course I don't want it completely. Let the health fund remain, but we could introduce co-payments for these risky factors.

But I don't know what's wrong with such a system. It's as social as you take care of your health. Unfair maybe only for diseases where you're really not to blame, there I advocate for social correction. If you live risky it just costs you.

The difference in paying basic insurance is only that here they deduct it from salary there they pay it separately. Why was there such a fuss about so-called 'Obamacare'. That effectively wanted to introduce exactly what Europe has. Automatic insurance, deduction from salaries. It wouldn't hurt anyone but would deduct equally from all salaries to insure even the poor who can't afford insurance (read they'd pay more than now for basic insurance. How worse! Immediately there was fire in the roof, saying: 'in the land of freedom no one can force me to pay into some fund if I haven't insured so far'. Completely different mentality therefore. We must know that there many people don't insure also because they don't want to, they save, they rely they take good enough care of health, not because they'd be poor... just like here not everyone insures their house. There health insurance is just one of the insurances (at least until that 'Obamacare' - I don't know exactly how it turned out now).

tinky5. 02. 2015 16:32:58

"Takle mamo" on Jesenice is the topic, if we didn't get it. suspicious look

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jax5. 02. 2015 17:16:12

But I don't know what's wrong with such a system. It's as social as you take care of your health. Unfair maybe only for diseases where you're really not to blame, there I advocate for social correction. If you live risky it just costs you.

Here, I'll just reply to this... winking

Actually I won't reply myself but forward data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_system#International_comparisons

It's purely a question of costs and benefits. The American health system is by far the most expensive in the world, population health indicators lag behind many countries with a larger role of the state in providing services. See the table in the link.

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VanSims5. 02. 2015 19:00:01

American healthcare is private, prices at private providers are of course higher for the same service than in public institutions. Plus insurers aren't charities but also private who take their profit from everything through higher premiums. That at least partially explains higher healthcare costs.

But if you look at the link 'List of countries by quality of health care' you see that American healthcare is also one of the best in the world in quality. Private is usually better than public, honestly it surprised me too that they are ahead of Germany and e.g. all Scandinavia.

"population health indicators lag behind many countries with larger state role"

Well at least in the American example the state role doesn't play much. What the 'American style of life' is we know - inactivity, unhealthy diet, stressful society, obesity percentage one of the highest in the world,... Strange it's not even worse.

Once again don't misunderstand me. I really don't advocate for such an extreme system where if something happens to you they come with ambulance, check if you have insurance and if not drive off and let you die. That's an extreme. The other extreme is that we all pay for everything. That's socialism or leads to irresponsible society. Maybe, thank God, those guys up there at least move, better than fixing drugs or sitting in pubs getting drunk and stoned. It's mainly about those who harm themselves precisely with the latter and other bad habits then we who take care live healthy and are able to work have to pay for them. That's not it!

bagi5. 02. 2015 19:17:49

The topic "Takle majo" in America is still missing for us. Will you two open it smile

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biba5. 02. 2015 19:46:11

The conversation really doesn't belong in this thread, but I could recommend watching the documentary Sicko. Maybe there'll be time to watch it, in these snowy days. Check YT or Partis.. Lp!

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Majdag9. 02. 2015 10:39:36

.. .Something always happens around here nasmeh

....

Smuk for the Svinjska glava trophy - 15.2. 2015 at 11.oo nasmeh