Rakar - Recent messages

Every time I write a hiking tip or experience description somewhere, I ask myself where the line is … The line of my responsibility. Responsibility for the reader's safety and for spoiling their experience in advance, because with my description it might be too revealed. A clear answer is almost impossible to find, so caution is in place.

What am I aiming at? The description of the pathless approach to Pihavec (through Luknja, past the memorial plaque). It seems to me that this time it went (so typical for the Hribi.net portal) step-by-step describing hiking trails, supported by photo report and possibly also with GPS track, beyond all bounds of good taste. You marked the pathless terrain photo by photo with a red line. I might still understand if you drew the route direction on a global photo taken from afar, say from Plemenic, but like this … That pathless route no longer exists! It's done with it! Forever!

Well, OK, I'll relent once more if it were a completely easy and safe thing. But no, here a gully appears, to which you "hand-led" the masses … And that one, as you say "…quite steep and requires quite some climbing." You forget to say that in the gully, right "around the corner" of the entry jump, an alpine belay is prepared (didn't you notice it?). That would immediately say more about the difficulty, equipment and knowledge needed for safe upward progress (let alone descent the same way, which you don't advise to the uninitiated even with a word).

I won't continue, although I'm in the right mood. I know it's hopeless. I know you'll continue with step-by-step describing even in very demanding pathless terrains. I know you'll attach GPS tracks. (To understand each other, I see nothing particularly controversial in this approach for already marked paths!). I know you won't ask yourselves if you're perhaps carrying some tiny bit of co-responsibility when, say, next to Tinetova plaque another one is placed …

Am I doing injustice? Am I too harsh? Am I perhaps wrong after all? I can only hope!

Regards

Now, as a debate has started here and a poll on introducing mandatory registration is running at the same time (and a small polemic on photo authorship has also appeared), it seems the right time to me to publicly ask (I first thought of doing this "privately" to "info@hribi.net") what has interested me for some time: who actually "stands" behind hribi.net, who is the owner, what is the purpose of operation (primary and secondary), who moderates and their concept, who are the authors of most primary trail photoguides (I have no negative remarks!), etc., ... Well, it's quite obvious, I wished for a more complex presentation if possible, although the site's layout concept already answers most questions in general. And so I don't get misunderstood by chance: the work done collecting general mountaineering information published on this site (trail photoguides, panoramas, thematically collected photos, ..., GPS track posts - I have minor concerns here) deserves recognition!

Of course I allow the possibility that all my questions have already been answered sometime, but since there is no "general searcher" or I can't find it, I don't know how to find the answers myself, and I have no time for sequential reading of contribution history ...

Thanks in advance for the answers!

Best, Rakar

Cool! Nicely photo-documented, pleasant and clever comments!

On the PZS pages it says it's still open. A phone number is posted there: 051/632-738; it's smart to check.

Hope the link below works in this form:
http://www.pzs.si/index.php?stran=Seznam huts&koca_id=30

Regards

Aha, if it's the three-way junction on the SW side of Hribarice (Vrata, Dolič, Prehodavci or 7J) - directly above the 7J valley, then that intermediate time isn't so blatantly wrong. (Maybe it was written by a marker who had a very good day then, or maybe a quarter or half hour got lost somewhere ...) The previous is written half in jest, half seriously! Anyway, if we say that the time according to the guide for the 7J - Prehodavci section is 2h15min (uphill), for 7J - Dolič 3h30min (via Hribarice, regardless of direction), for Prehodavci - Dolič 2h15min (via Hribarice, regardless of direction), then we get a pretty good feel. But the times, especially intermediate ones, on direction signs (and rocks) often differ from those in the hiking guides. The latter are mostly longer, all-inclusive. I explain this difference also (!) by the fact that some guides were written when it was calculated that on average one hour of "mountain" walking is used for 300 to 350 meters of ascent, today this "auxiliary norm" is slowly approaching 400 meters of altitude, if not pushing over. Everything goes faster anyway and some hikers are really well trained today ... (The 7J valley is of course not a good example for using such calculations, I would almost say it's the exception that proves the rule.)

Only one marked path leads over or from Hribaric (here I mean the whole plateau, so there's no doubt) to the valley and then towards the hut at 7J, but there is an unmarked shortcut from Vrata (pass between Zadnji Vogal and Velika Zelnarica) to the 7J valley, which joins the marked path south of Zeleno jezero. This connection could otherwise be used (from Hribaric following the marks turn left towards Vrata and then at the right place right pathless downhill), but no significant time saving can be expected, especially since this option is not indicated with a directional sign and equipped with walking times to the hut at 7J.

Perhaps we don't understand each other well in some detail, since in the previous post you asked about the direct path from Hribaric to Dolič (then I thought of the marked variant over the summit of Kanjavec, although timewise, hmmm ...) but in the last one you write about the signpost on Hribaricah pointing directly to the hut at 7J ... (so in the diametrically opposite direction)

Anyway, Mukica, if you write a few more words, we can try to clarify; otherwise, I will probably repeat myself when, along with the maps, I again recommend for JA in general, as well as Mihelič's guide Julijske Alpe for this area. You will surely be satisfied! The internet with all its options still remains an irreplaceable medium for information on the current condition of the paths (taken with appropriate distance, of course).

Lp

Since I'm here anyway. Geppo, you're absolutely right. Thanks! Yesterday I forgot to add that I'm ending the advertising within this topic, regardless of responses. Now! Of course, with this I don't promise that in time, in case of disagreement with something, my keyboard won't itch under my fingers again ...

Regards

Tadej, I know it's a slip, but correcting anyway can't hurt.

2. variant; between Krstenica (over Laz) and Dedno polje approx. 2 hours walk.

Some small experience also speaks from me because of which I started this topic, so I won't push my possible frustrations into this polemic. It's already dangerously turning to a very personal level. (By the way, I am for respecting authorship. If nothing else, at least a mention deserves the source from which we draw.) Hm, I don't know where some get information about my paths, my conversations, especially about evil intentions with this website ... Anyway, it seems to me that my purpose is clearly visible through all my writing, just let go of malice, whoever can.

It's really interesting what all can be attributed to a person if they don't agree with the WAY of presenting off-trail paths and advocate that warnings appropriate for such tours be at least equivalent to those from classic guidebook literature. Precisely the absence of an appropriate rating is certainly a shortcoming of the Pihavec path description (Does anyone else remember? That's why I started writing!), as is that red line on the photo, backed by GPS track, superfluous from my viewpoint. With my voice I oppose anyone marking everywhere in this way anytime. I exposed my voice openly (yes, deliberately a bit sharply!) - here, on this site (subforum is called general discussions!), not behind someone's back. Some read my opinion (off-trail describers and description users), some thought about it, some even responded (for or against or undecided - all counts!) … That's it. Nothing more! So simple. Without terrible conspiracy theory! And, damn it, because of this I don't own all off-trail paths. And I don't jealously keep them to myself. Come on, most were already "all" described somewhere (at least from mouth to ear). Because of my stance I'm surely not elevated above all "common folk" as a self-elevated envious person, false enlightener, moralist, … And because of this there's no need to paint shining crosses next to it, nor call our dear Svetlana (I mean Mrs. Makarovič with her little Slovenes) … And I'm probably guilty myself, right, if I found myself (a)mong the spits. There must be something to it, otherwise it surely wouldn't!?! And I already received an apology in advance.

Now I'll twist the matter (purely rhetorically and not out of malice) and ask: what motive does that one have who brands everyone who expresses any reservation about a piece of content on this internet site in such a way. Who is he to judge so vehemently and even put thoughts and words into others' mouths? Who is he who once had honest intentions, but was unjustly attributed profit-seeking intent, so now he attributes base intentions to others? I could ask more, but since it's just rhetoric, I'll stop.

And, since I'm already dangerously going far off-topic, I'll ask what was meant by those crosses … Really interests me. Me, who thinks I have nothing to do with them in any way! If that shining cross above Okrešlje (which one?) is a metaphor aimed at everyone, then that "Sunday armchair cross" (for couch potatoes with backpacks) is surely aimed at a specific person. Really, I'm very interested in the explanation of the metaphor and what was just stuck on next to it. Maybe we agree on (many) things, just our zeal is too great to notice!

@kriška
Of course, I'll step on off-trail paths too. Some will surely remain only for me, if not entirely, at least some step. Anyway, then I always share it with others and it becomes even more mine. ( But no, when others throw a stone, the hand automatically reaches … )

Onsight, excellently written! Also theatrical.

But I still have to add something, because it stands out a bit too much. Namely, just one small, completely specific part of the work on this website was "condemned". Otherwise, a lot of work has been done on hribi.net, which I'm not claiming for the first time. I don't want to delve into the reasons why someone takes on such work!

Thanks to all who have, and to those who might still discuss this topic. My purpose has already been more than achieved. And no hard feelings if I've excessively raised someone's pressure!

Regards

I see that in the meantime, alongside my "theory of caution", some more serious views have accumulated. Most are liked by most. Why not?! Unfortunately all assume that step-by-step descriptions supported by photos and GPS track will be used by people who have enough experience with GPS devices, as well as other necessary basic mountaineering experiences that contribute to safe movement on pathless terrain. For such I'm not excessively worried and I heartily wish them tasting until recently hidden, now "hidden" corners.

I'm worried about the others (and I didn't hide that between the lines), whom such "instant guiding" will almost "by the hand" bring to (for them) dangerous areas, where one wrong decision or five-meter GPS error will mean the line between being and not being! Primarily because of them I write these (unpopular!) warnings. Anyway, it's happening similarly as in alpinism … There too there's no more that proper progression that brings experience, which brings more safety. There too it happens that otherwise well climbing-trained "guys" don't know classic descents, because they simply skipped the lesson of walking marked paths and then pathless terrain. Consequently tragedies happen. It really (hit) me, the popularly populist hint at egoism (hiding pathless terrain) and the logic of the inevitable, saying that GPS era is coming irresistibly anyway and currently only a few people will use the technology and such descriptions of pathless terrain in general. Of course GPS era is coming (and brings good and bad) and although I too hope (and believe) that the number of inexperienced on pathless terrain (due to such publications) won't increase significantly, that doesn't mean that it's not worth holding back the GPS era a bit just because of one life or one unnecessary injury. On the contrary! And if it holds that such revealing of the pathless world will "benefit" only a small number of people, why the hell is such public revealing needed at all? Especially since we know there's no return process (I emphasize for the n-th time, such "revealed" pathless terrain can't be "hidden" again) and that the possibility of exploration will be taken away forever from someone else (admittedly again small number of people). No dilemma, in the previous sentence I'm shamelessly carrying water to my own mill!

Good luck - to authors of guiding "path descriptions" and users!

P.s. I emphasize again, I have nothing against GPS tracks of marked paths – the combination is mostly only beneficial. I also know that within GRS for quite a long period an archive of GPS tracks is being created, which has already been and will be even more useful in the future. In experienced hands, with the right purpose!

I also believe that you strive to be as objective as possible. Here it can already get complicated... Namely, effort is not always enough or sometimes even too much (again nagging about step-by-step descriptions and "marking" of pathless terrains)! And now I'll link the argumentation to your invitation to authors of better descriptions... That's exactly what I was telling between the lines in this thread first, then almost directly. No need to reinvent hot water. Everything you write has already been written. In many guides (it's visible from descriptions that you use them, although you don't cite sources – but that's a matter of morals...) They were written by people with a lot of mountaineering mileage. That is a necessary (but not necessarily sufficient) condition for objectivity. The same applies to developed sense for the right measure of revealing the hidden. In the words of these experience-soaked authors, constant care for the reader is felt. That's the (co)responsibility I wrote about. Surely no one thought I want the author's "blood", like material (co)responsibility for a possible accident... Come on! But I suggest author reflection and a bit of self-censorship, suggest more warnings. In parallel I am thinking whether today almost anyone can write "guides" (no offense, I don't know your experience, only infer from descriptions) and sometimes even forgets warnings or reduces the tour difficulty... Namely, to understand each other, you are not ordinary forum describers who perhaps casually mention or photo some guiding point on the path, otherwise primarily describe their experience on the tour. No, you don't describe experience – you write only and exclusively about movement towards the goal.

Now in normal circumstances I would conclude with conciliatory and calm words that suit me best. But I can't. The pressure rose again from the "(counter)argument" that red line on photo and GPS track destroy pathless terrains less than cairns. Holy cow, can't it be understood that cairns placed at key points are minimal orientation aid, necessary especially for worse conditions (say fog), while drawn red line on publicly posted photo means the end of that pathless part, not to mention publicly posted GPS track.

Once again I'll emphasize that the controversy of step-by-step describing, "drawing" photo lines and posting GPS tracks applies only to pathless terrains, I have nothing against either for already marked paths - it's even useful and contributes to safety of marked path users. And once again, regarding pathless, this time loudly: EVERYTHING CAN BE FIXED!

LP]]>

The three-level scale you mention, still in use, tells too little in my opinion. Regardless of the precision of the boundary definition. True, something about tour classification can be read in the introduction of almost every guide, very illustratively and suitably for our (hiking) needs, Andrej Stritar treated this topic in PV 10-2006 (pp. 35-38). There among other things he defines a graphically clear descriptive-value table, with which every path is rated from three categories (difficulty, strenuousness, orientation) and uses a five-level scale for each category. My humble non-expert opinion is that this is an excellent synthesis of what has been seen and used so far! It just needs to be put into practice.

In general, subjectivity despite criteria is built into all human activity. It can of course be felt in guide literature too, only that the undisputed authority (how annoying phrase, right) from this field adds a noble touch to it.

But I still don't know who we are comparing to Tinet Mihelič. I really want the Hribi.net contribution authors to introduce themselves, if not (almost certainly not!), then at least expect some response to my opinion: about their step-by-step description of pathless terrains, about "photo-marking", about (co)responsibility, …

LP
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By the way, what does the undisputed authority among hikers say about this path? Mountaineering Guide Julian Alps (Tine Mihelič), Pihavec, from Luknja. "... The pathless part of the ascent is very demanding, we recommend belaying."

I got lost (despite the guide in hand). Sorry, Kriška, the unbearable ease of understanding (co)responsibility stung me... Completely in the spirit of the times. Everyone for themselves. Influences on others' decisions incur no (co)responsibility! (Until now I thought that decades of mountaineering mean something in looking at the world.)

Actually, I wanted to get into a polemic with the description author (not only him, indirectly also with the portal owners, which I have praised in the past). But it's not even a polemic, it's a reflection! Perhaps such a reflection would be reached by itself if the authors of "guide-like" contributions signed with full names!? Why? Also because it's not just an innocent activity of benevolent help to hikers on their paths, but a serious matter... And commercially - there are ads on Hribi.net portal. Nothing wrong, but responsibility increases!

I admit, perhaps this (such) description stings me a bit more given the listed facts, because it's Tine Mihelič's last path...

It's still possible to fix something.]]>

One more addition (hope I don't confuse you). My "memory assistant" reminded me that one of the mulatieres at mentioned 1800m branches towards summit already quite before the above repeatedly mentioned saddle under V. Montura. In short, as said, hill is riddled with military paths and easiest to decide on terrain. Beware of fog!

Regards

Bojan, when in doubt it's wise to check some guidebook. Tine Mihelič in the "Julijske Alpe" guide writes: "... The slopes are very open and exposed, the path is secured only where necessary. Therefore this path requires a mountaineer with a sure step. ..., it is the most difficult approach to Triglav. ... Only trained, well-equipped mountaineers who do not know vertigo should undertake it. The path is long and strenuous, orientation is also somewhat demanding, ... Nevertheless, we can warmly recommend this path to trained mountaineers. ..."

So, no dilemma, the path is very demanding. How you perceive it depends on many factors. You can influence the subjective ones! I speak of experience, psycho-physical readiness, equipment and knowledge how to use it, choice of the right day, ...

How you will present this path to others later is also very dependent on your experience and especially on your personality. That's why you got such different answers and that's why (I repeat) it's wise to seek answers (especially) in guidebook literature, where objectivity is expected.

Good luck when you go there and peek over the Wall from close up! Of course with crampons!

Regards

Looking from the direction of the Krn Lakes approx. at 1800m height, from the marked path to Baba (which turns north there), branches off to the right "your path" (actually it's the other way around, the trail to Baba branches off). It leads you to the saddle between point 1919 (nameless peak) and Velika Montura, there it turns sharply left and first crosses west on the slope of V.M., then turns south, past the barracks, towards the summit. From the summit of course possible steep, bushy, pathless descent directly south to the marks, but not advisable except for the very experienced. Instead return on the approach path to the aforementioned saddle (between point 1919 and V.M.), from there a path leads right (first east, then southeast) to the marks under Vratci (Bogatinsko sedlo). About the current condition of the path I can't tell you anything, because I haven't walked exactly there for a few years, but if these military paths have lasted almost a century, then one more year doesn't mean much - they are still traceable, walkable even better than pure pathless terrain.

Advice. If you go first to Velika Baba, from there check out the clearly visible (aforementioned) military path between the saddle and the barracks (under the summit of V.M.). Caution, if you're not confident in your off-trail skills, better not push directly from Baba to the saddle (between point 1919 and V.M.), because something might surprise you. Better descend from Baba on the trail back to the aforementioned branch at 1800m height, from there go left to the saddle ...

Don't take my word too literally, because there are still a few options, I am purposely describing the one that you can check yourself on the map Krnsko pogorje and Kobarid (1:25000).

Good luck. Report how it went.

Regards