|
| spetovar10. 02. 2010 12:23:00 |
Yeah those guys were pretty brave how they tested it 
tol: Abroad you can get transceivers 50-100 € cheaper depending on model. But they still cost quite a bit. Sure they have to be super tested and whatever, but prices are really wild compared to the technology. Also true that target audience isn't as big as e.g. mobiles. 
|
|
|
|
| JusAvgustin10. 02. 2010 13:15:02 |
life has no price, transceivers still do for now. If you seriously hike mountains in winter or ski tour, it's the most important thing. Otherwise a good set costs around 500. Abroad avalanche gear is mandatory for ski tourers. Transceiver 360, shovel 70, probe from 50 up...  , but what is that compared to consequences?
|
|
|
|
| spetovar10. 02. 2010 13:30:08 |
Yeah that's true what you say and I agree with what you and tol said. But that doesn't change the fact that the gear isn't some technological wonder that's super complicated, yet expensive as if they just discovered RF. If you look at materials for making a transceiver, I don't think it'd exceed 20$ much. Not to mention probes. But that's how it is and for now we can't do anything. If I went abroad nonstop I'd get it without thinking. Here it'll take time until mountaineers' awareness (including mine) is sensible enough that everyone has transceivers.
|
|
|
|
| tol10. 02. 2010 13:32:19 |
I'll ask differently.
What gives you better chances of being found in Slovenian mountains if an avalanche buries you: avalanche transceiver or avalanche airbag?
Or if deciding to buy, what should I rather get: transceiver that 20% of winter mountain visitors have or avalanche airbag that anyone can find in avalanche without any gear?
Regarding target market: I think the hiking, trekking and alpinism shop market is doing well. There are plenty of shops but it doesn't reflect much in competitive prices.
80% don't have transceivers here, I think mainly because of price. I think if it were more affordable price-wise the percentage would be much better in favor of use.
True that I also don't understand our country insisting on VAT for products like avalanche gear, helmets (mountaineering, cycling, motorcycling).. I think the state could contribute here and exempt such things from tax payment. In UK I know cycling helmets are exempt from tax.
| (+1) |  | |
|
|
|
|
| spetovar10. 02. 2010 13:42:44 |
Tol, don't talk too much about the tax, some state employee might read this forum, they'll raise hell even more
Otherwise I join your opinion.
I decided rather to invest in knowledge and gradually acquiring experiences than equipment, since the first one comes in handy even if you hike alone (which I often like).
Which doesn't mean I'm right, as I wrote above, I also need to change my thinking that the transceiver isn't just some gimmick.
|
|
|
|
| stefanb10. 02. 2010 14:21:06 |
Even if we're alone, using the transceiver isn't senseless. Regardless of what is with us under the avalanche, alive or dead, the transceiver signals the location. And that shortens the search time and thus reduces the rescuers' exposure to also being buried themselves to a minimal time. That counts for something.
|
|
|
|
| turbo10. 02. 2010 14:59:04 |
In the well-known mountaineering gear store the cheapest beacon costs 220€. Plus shovel and probe and you get to 290€. On top of that you get 10% discount if you're PZS member or their regular customer. For some time they had a kit for a bit less than 250€. This is gear that doesn't wear out as quickly as clothes and boots. If I eyeball that this gear will serve you at least 5 years, I'm convinced it'll be more, that's 50€ per winter season. Or approx. 4€ monthly for 5 years. Doesn't seem excessive to me from safety viewpoint. I use the beacon the whole winter season, both for ski touring, climbing couloirs and on approaches. In conditions like current ones, I also carry shovel and probe. 100% safety in mountains simply doesn't exist, neither summer nor winter. If a big rock falls on your head, neither experience nor gear helps. And even if in snow you choose "safe" goal and avoid avalanche terrain, couloirs and such, there's always those few percent chance something goes wrong. If I'm in mountains with friends or alone somewhere but the tour is crowded, they'll find me faster and help if I have beacon on. If alone somewhere in some gullies, they'll find me quickly even if too late, and won't waste time searching. Not to mention with complete gear I can help others too. Yeah, mountaineering isn't cheap fun, but it's nice and great. But bowling is cheaper  and safer
|
|
|
|
| tol10. 02. 2010 16:33:57 |
We drifted far from the original idea, whether it's possible at home for relatively little money to make an avalanche ball thing and if it would work in the end.
And nobody wants to touch the above question what's better: ball or beacon?
Ball has advantages: anyone can find it without knowledge or gear.
Beacon even if you have it, you need to know how to use it. And probably combination of poor knowledge and "shock or panic" from avalanche, searching for victim can take quite long. On the course some struggled with finding buried beacon.
|
|
|
|
| turbo10. 02. 2010 17:04:34 |
Tol,
the thing is simple. Definitely the ball. Now it's just question how long the cord must be and what material the cord must be. Because if the cord is too short, both you and the ball stay under avalanche debris and if
the cord is "too weak", it might break. Then bye bye ball.
But if the cord is too strong and wraps around your neck maybe, then not good again.
Damn, how come Austrians, French, Swiss, Italians, and others who have some mountains and snow, haven't figured this out yet. Instead of developing electronics, better go pump balls and test cords, right?!
Oh, almost forgot, at the end: ball doesn't need batteries changed, that's not negligible! And no need to attach instruction manual!!!
|
|
|
|
| a4si10. 02. 2010 17:20:24 |
My thinking:
BALL is interesting idea, but how with it in practice? Couple questions come to mind:
- how/where to carry it so you can throw it very easily?
- if avalanche surprises you, do you even have time to throw it?
- can some ice chunk in avalanche puncture it? will it then "sink" in avalanche?
- how long cord? longer it is higher chance it tangles and goes with you under avalanche...
- still need at least shovel from mandatory gear (or those searching you): on average buried at 1-1.5m depth and you can forget digging by hand, especially if snow is a bit compacted (personally checked on avalanche course - even with shovel takes eternity, bare hands no chance...)
- and more could be found...
BEACON:
- just one comment: "if you have it, learn to use it..." in my opinion no problem to take half hour break on every tour and practice a bit (at least I do)
Otherwise always together: beacon, probe, shovel - one without others helps almost nothing...
|
|
|
|
| turbo10. 02. 2010 17:39:36 |
With ball or similar there's another problem. Often ski also between trees or bushes. And how will you ski if dragging something behind, constantly snagging? Just the blast of avalanche is strong, let alone debris itself, suddenly under snow, whether you have something on cord or not, both pull down, I don't know...
a4si in my opinion is totally right: full kit with you and knowledge how to use it.
If we limit to just ball... new backpacks with "air bags" are kind of "ball" or even better, since you "inflate" it when accident happens, and it really helps stay on surface. But a bit more expensive than beacon+shovel+probe kit.
|
|
|
|
| tol10. 02. 2010 17:48:17 |
The cord is packed or folded and you don't drag it behind. Throw it if avalanche breaks loose.
|
|
|
|
| turbo10. 02. 2010 17:55:36 |
Okay, cord is folded. But where's the ball?! The ball must be appropriately big to do its job and an appropriately big ball just doesn't fit in a smaller backpack used for one- or two-day tours.
To me this simply "doesn't fit", this ball and cord. I'll stick to airbag, probe and shovel.
|
|
|
|
| sebanakis10. 02. 2010 19:12:15 |
Avalung system is simple, the tube ensures that you suck air from small air pockets in the snow and thus extends your life. And on the other side you have CO2 inlet. Of course it depends a lot on snow type... as for airbag, shovel and probe, you need lots of practice before you are really used to working with it. Shovel, probe and airbag kit 199.90 with discount 159.92€. Some jackets already have recco system, but the problem is that the cell phone signal interferes with it, at least as far as I know the issue.
|
|
|
|
| Santi10. 02. 2010 19:29:23 |
Tol, aren't you by chance from the avalanche institute in Davos 
|
|
|
|
| stefanb10. 02. 2010 19:47:29 |
You can go with a balloon, you can go with an airbag, but shovel and probe still go with it. Without a shovel, 15 minutes pass quickly. Plus some course, experience, a guide at the beginning, then a bit of luck and a lot of common sense, because nothing is 100%, and mountains can be beautiful in winter and summer.
|
|
|
|
| turbo10. 02. 2010 20:16:44 |
Tol wrote above:
"Or if I had to decide on a purchase, what should I buy rather: airbag, which 20% of winter mountain visitors have, or avalanche balloon, which anyone can find in an avalanche without any gear?"
Something's not clear to me here: airbag has 20% of winter mountain visitors!?
Avalanche balloon, which I learned about from Tol, but there's no word about it on the world wide web, the other 80% supposedly have it, or what?!
As far as I'm concerned, flippers and armbands too, if someone thinks it'll help. Or wait for the Chinese to invent something even better!!!
|
|
|
|
| tol10. 02. 2010 20:29:29 |
Percentages are approximations, but I'm sure that in Slovenian mountains in winter, around 20 to 30% of mountaineers/alpinists use avalanche airbag. REs every year and this percentage increases.
The other 80 or 70% have nothing. And if an avalanche buries you, those 70 to 80% mountaineers without gear will more easily find the buried one who has an avalanche balloon than one with airbag.
Understand?
I don't deny that airbag works. On the contrary, it does. But under conditions where airbag is used en masse.
Realistically: even if I afford an airbag myself, the buddies I go to the mountains with, in the current situation, can hardly scrape together money for an airbag purchase. So the situation is: avalanche buries me, I use airbag, buddies don't. So it hardly helps me. If I used a balloon, in case it stays on the surface, buddies would at least follow the balloon and rope and could locate me.
|
|
|
You must log in to post a comment:
If you do not yet have a username, you must first
register.