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Covid-19, Ukraine

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dprapr5. 12. 2020 19:18:26
Yes, jax, we had a whole period when after matura they interrupted young people's studies in their most rosy years so they could mow lawns with ašovčič. Some still have consequences today.nasmeh
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redbull5. 12. 2020 20:38:21
God help Primož, this Covid has really twisted you completely. Regarding mountain posts you're super, even if you'll block me everywhere, I still like to look - but this about the virus you'll have to take some strong pill for
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lino5. 12. 2020 20:45:40

Drago, I see you're very proud that you could serve the homeland. You defended the homeland from enemies. Probably the state has duly rewarded you for your contribution to defense. At least they granted you the benefit period for sure. Kudos! nasmeh
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dprapr5. 12. 2020 21:43:38
Lino, you won't believe it, they really granted it to me. But not that part with ašovčiči. That wasn't my generation, they were younger. I see you don't know much about it. nasmeh
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Mcgiver6. 12. 2020 09:40:47
Primož, sorry I didn't reply right away, I had the "bottle filter" on and didn't see your response. You say we should follow the "voice of the people". Why do you think that voice is comparable to yours? Ah, because you're the smartest and smart people think like you. And no, I'm not among that one third that doesn't follow measures. (as you keep hammering) I go to the store twice a month, daily forest walk without mask, disinfect hands (not with contactless device), I don't hang out at all because I have no will, I try to occupy thoughts with everything else except epidemic. Since the economy is going so wonderfully as you say, I've been on furlough for five weeks!!!! Do you dare admit you work from home for 100% salary?
Good we have pictures and memories of done feats, and hope that it will be better someday, otherwise the situation would be destructive for the psyche.
dprapr, mowing grass with ašovčič was luxury and joy, cleaning 40-meter corridor on knees with eraser, a bit less....velik nasmeh (firsthand)
And a nice, though rainy day to all, regardless of how they think.
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andi26. 12. 2020 14:04:46
Primož, I'll pull back a bit. Maybe in some very narrow field, otherwise it's hard in the category you're putting me in. This is just my personal opinion - some people can talk to each other, some like each other, others can't talk, see or even hate each other. So what. The forum and the world is too big for us not to coexist. It's already nice to see on the forum how some people change for the better over the years. One more personal opinion, then I'll stop philosophizing. Wisdom is hidden in the multitude of advice. Not necessarily those you agree with or that are correct. They balance you and in the long run lead to progress. In the opposite case (blocking) you stay alone. Smart in many areas, completely incompetent in many places. Below are some of my private views on the questions regarding the Covid debate. If someone doesn't want to read them or doesn't agree with them, just skip them. Healthy December to everyone!


The advice that Primož listed in the pictures are of course sensible. What else can you add here.
Do I believe in them and manage to follow them as much as possible - mostly yes.
Do I believe in the media hype against one third, terrible children and youth, locking in houses and on the marsh, demolishing this or that option (whatever suits them better) - no.
Young doctors - interesting approach, but similar in many ways to tweeting by politically oriented young doctors. Media appearances, little direct experience with patients and quickly getting into arguments if someone disagrees with something.
Media-exposed health experts - definitely leading Slovenian references in this field. On the other hand, again very little direct work with Covid patients, and even that in the best hazmat suits, which are the only really proven means against virus transmission (about 1/100 workers receive them).
Regarding transmission prevention - how will an ordinary person manage to change a regular mask every 2 hours, because otherwise it's all similar to the cleanliness of a computer keyboard, I don't know.
In short - the situation is serious, very demanding and very difficult to control. The rest we've already written a hundred times. Personally 2 weeks ago that, which still holds today - that measures after two weeks didn't change much. Not necessarily because of us disobedient mortals. Yes, and also because of the high virulence of the virus in our pool. Despite that, because of December we'll open everything that's necessary in capitalism.


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jax6. 12. 2020 14:35:38
Well, since I was challenged ... well, intellectual, that's such an abused word. Let's say, given that I have a university degree in humanities, I could be in some sense. But not even close to professionally dealing with opinion leadership.
As for your statements from the previous post, well - yeah, there's a lot to agree with. But I noticed that lately you've sharpened your positions a lot and started advocating a complete stop to life (so you don't tell me I'm talking nonsense - your post from 21.11.). Regarding that, I just can't get past the fact that while you claim everything should be stopped, you still diligently post reports from your family hikes. Yes, true - according to current measures it's not forbidden. But if you claim it's the only option right now, you could be consistent and follow it yourself. But apparently not.
But I very much disagree with your indiscriminate spitting on the people. People are just a Gaussian curve and no one has managed to change that yet (and let's be honest, attempts at mass changing of people have historically usually had very tragic consequences). And with anti-corona measures it's like with all others - you'll have a small share of people who follow them to the letter, a small share who ignore them completely, and the vast majority somewhere in between. It's clear that with the right approach we can improve compliance, but first, it only goes to a certain extent, and second, it's always a matter of authority, not people.
And one more thing: you're definitely underestimating the side effects of measures to stop the economy and unemployment. Empirically it's been established that longer periods of unemployment and poverty have permanent effects on people, which show even when the situation eventually calms down. They show in long-term worse material condition, worse health, even higher mortality. In short, you might be underestimating this effect on people dying too.
And one more - I can't shake the impression that if this virus had appeared 30 or 40 years ago, when we didn't have PCR tests available, it would just be talked about as some "strange flu", for which vulnerable groups would die in somewhat higher numbers, life would go on more or less normally, measures would boil down to restrictions on mass events and maybe school closures, then it would pass and we'd live on. And unfortunately right now I don't see a better option - protect vulnerable groups as much as possible, adopt reasonable restrictions that mainly affect situations where mass transmission is possible, and wait for it to pass or for a vaccine to come. I simply don't see how a more restrictive approach could be more effective, considering all side effects.
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Mcgiver6. 12. 2020 14:54:07
andi2, I completely agree with you on the above, especially about communication and personal growth.
primoza, by voice of the people I mean the majority opinion of the people of some community (country), which is what the words should mean.
jax I also completely agree with you, just that I wouldn't write it so nicely.....zadrega
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jax6. 12. 2020 15:02:04
The problem is that decisions on social measures are - political. And no need to fool yourself that they're not.
In short, expert consensus you say. Which experts? Already in medicine there's a problem. At least in Slovenia the loudest are various infectologists, pulmonologists, even some pediatrician, but when an epidemiologist (who strictly speaking is the most qualified) publicly expresses just slight doubt, he's quickly silenced. But the thing needs to be framed broader. If we're talking about "voice of the people", economists, lawyers, psychologists, sociologists, educators and probably others would have something to say too. And - face it - no, there's no consensus here, views of different fields differ. So, debate is needed here, the final decision on measures can only be political, no matter how much politics hides behind "expertise" (that expertise that suits it).
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Mcgiver6. 12. 2020 15:12:30
Now that I've read it again, I see that we interpret this "voice of the people" differently.

I have to admit that I read your text more superficially because of the duplication error: "Tako se je tudi tu dobro tudi tu zanesti na dobro delujoč "glas ljudstva" ........
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andi26. 12. 2020 15:26:42
I think jax hit the nail on the head regarding consensus. The slightly disheveled epidemiologist also most rationally called me personally to my senses. And he was of course ignored, because then the media have nothing to publish about which we plebs can argue, click and point fingers at the culprit. And we all know that a few hundred years ago expert consensus depended on religion (faith), then on religion that claimed it is not (atheism), and finally on science, which is too often spineless, because we all like some public applause, monument and blue envelope. Well, there is also the often mentioned China, which effectively suppresses the spread of the virus (applause), but then is quickly overlooked in the numbers, even if you died from Covid or were sent to a re-education camp because of it (silence).
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Mcgiver6. 12. 2020 17:35:10
Primoza, I'm glad to see that it's possible to communicate nicely and calmly with you too and that we agree at least on some things. Yes, sometimes you need to calm the ball. LP nasmeh
But you didn't answer my questionzavijanje z očmi
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Mcgiver6. 12. 2020 19:17:32
Thanks, just for the first two sentences. About the rest I don't doubt you anyway.....velik nasmeh
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pohodnik386. 12. 2020 23:37:33
It seems to me personally at least as I feel it will last and last and last especially if NIJZ keeps this approach. It looks really amateurish.... to give two examples in our company with 14 employees on Nov 11 first confirmed Covid-19 case. All who were in contact with him continue working normally. I had no symptoms just my legs hurt a bit. It seemed a bit unusual but yeah maybe work fatigue. Another colleague also in contact with infected continues working no one said we have to stay home no decision or document about it.
On Nov 14 second confirmed Covid-19 case office colleague and also another office colleague didn't stay home as she got no order to stay home. Nov 20 another 4 confirmed Covid 19 cases so in the company only four of us left working plus office and management. We got only some message to observe symptoms that's all. What if someone else had Covid but didn't even know because in this period anyway anyone coughs or sneezes a bit.... Similar in another company where my neighbor works in office also colleague positive for Covid 19 and no need to stay home in isolation as he got no document ordering it. Other example just the opposite two days ago I read on FB when a friend announced she has to stay home in quarantine because she was in contact with infected colleague at work..... interesting. And we couldn't even get tested which was our director's request since half the company was infected Maribor NIJZ response was that if no symptoms it's useless because test will be negative.
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damijanp7. 12. 2020 07:59:52
@pohodnik38 As far as I know, upon employee infection the employer must notify the selected occupational medicine doctor and that one orders isolation. Initially NIJZ issued these isolation decisions, but then it changed.
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zokipoki7. 12. 2020 08:04:10
This is called capitalism.
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nina47. 12. 2020 11:54:36
Due to the huge number of infected, NIJZ has stopped issuing decisions and transferred responsibility to us. Unfortunately, most don't know what they actually have to do, because they don't repeat it daily (like wearing masks, distance and disinfection). The instruction is "hidden" on the NIJZ page:
https://www.nijz.si/sites/www.nijz.si/files/uploaded/vstopne_tocke_navodila_osebam_ki_so_bila_izpostavljena_okuzbi_s_sars_cov2_2_23.11.2020.pdf

So, it is not the employer who notifies, but the one who was in high-risk contact with a Cov-19 positive person. A 10-day quarantine is also mandatory.
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Zebdi7. 12. 2020 12:46:23
Upon confirmed COVID infection, sick leave opens anyway and there are no dilemmas. Upon contact with an infected person, one needs to notify the employer; they contact occupational medicine, who assess if quarantine is needed and if yes, issue the appropriate certificate.
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andi27. 12. 2020 13:05:10
Here, I just mentioned Maria yesterday. She's leaving, what a shame. Always explained reasonably and soberly. Successful in other fields, Mr. Fafangel.
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Trobec7. 12. 2020 20:48:48
Primož, good that we have you to enlighten us and make... um... a professional review of statements of an otherwise top epidemiologist...zmeden
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