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Mountain Accidents

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ljubitelj gora1. 09. 2013 17:49:20
Reply from the web:
When rescuing a mountaineer who needs urgent medical assistance or a medical indication has been established, the transport costs are covered by ZZZS, but when it's helicopter rescue of an uninjured person or who got into danger due to gross negligence, that person must cover the rescue costs themselves. In such cases, there can be lengthy court proceedings and non-payment of costs, as there is no clear definition of what gross negligence is and when who is obliged to cover the costs.
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jax1. 09. 2013 18:07:43
If I'm completely honest, I don't even see what negligence here. The guys just got stuck, as has happened many times before. Surely there was some overestimation of abilities involved, although - in climbing circles the southern crack of Skuta is actually considered a nice beginner route. Now - is that enough to define it as gross negligence, that's the question, but I'm inclined to say no. Alcohol (at least I hope) wasn't involved, they mostly had the gear (not talking about helmet or foil, but key safety elements - harness, climbing shoes etc.), they followed the rules of rope team movement (at least I assume).
I don't claim they did everything right. On the contrary, this will surely be a big lesson for the future, whether they have to pay or not. But claiming that the whole thing was some major negligence or tempting fate is, in my opinion, exaggerated. And I'm not sure that charging for such rescues (at least as long as the current GRZS regulation applies) would send a good signal to the hiking public.
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Becar1. 09. 2013 19:32:30
I agree with @jax and add that various taxpayers would most gladly attribute negligence to every accident already. Similarly in this country it happens in other areas related to health, say with benefits for the incapacitated, when a person in diapers who can't get out of bed anymore is no longer incapacitated. If with one finger they still wiggle a bit, they are still partially mobile and get the corresponding benefit. So that some can then go to Honolulu to shit it.
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mirank1. 09. 2013 20:03:45
I think Bojan A from a couple years ago also has identical experience. If they don't make distinctions then it will cost approx 2500eur...
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Keko1. 09. 2013 21:08:48
If I understood correctly, in this case two climbed an alpine route together, who by alpine criteria shouldn't climb together in a team at all (two younger trainees). Younger trainee can climb only with alpinist or older trainee. Surely at least inexperience and conscious rule violation here, so...
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jax1. 09. 2013 21:34:59
The younger trainee has already passed the alpine school exam and is therefore qualified for independent movement in the wall. All further restrictions are merely a matter of internal rules of individual sections and have no general validity.
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Daaam1. 09. 2013 21:39:15
It is impossible to draw the line where one has enough experience and when gross negligence begins... what if it is just negligence, a tangle of circumstances etc. etc.... We can only defend them or nail them to the cross..
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ljubitelj gora1. 09. 2013 21:44:53
It seems a bit unusual to me that such a rescue would be free; in that case everyone would start massively climbing some routes and, when they got stuck, call GRS for a free flight back to the valley. After all, the most important thing here is that the rescuers saved them, that the rescue proceeded without incidents and that everyone is safe.

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Becar2. 09. 2013 05:23:57
One day an accident will happen due to this huge complication over who must pay and who not; someone won't even dare to call the rescuers and will push on. I also wonder if they would label some acquaintance of theirs as irresponsible if he got stuck somewhere. So that we don't end up with "connections" here too.
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JusAvgustin2. 09. 2013 07:02:41
more of them... nasmeh
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jedriličar2. 09. 2013 09:28:52
In HR for now all rescue costs are covered, though year by year more demands (proposals) to charge rescues of irresponsible (negligent) mainly tourists whom GSS persistently brings down from Biokovo, Mosor etc... in flip-flops, crocs etc. Of course then some line must be defined, what is irresponsibility and unpreparedness, and what is accident etc., which is very hard to draw. Then inevitably, as Becar wrote, an accident will happen because someone didn't call GSS fearing rescue costs would be charged. My opinion, I am a supporter that better to rescue everyone free, even those undeserving by their actions (shameless cocky negligent etc.) than someone dies fearing to call GSS due to potential costs. But just my humble opinion...
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rohc4. 09. 2013 15:52:25
The mentioned climber and climber woman already missed the route entry. For half the route they spent more than 6 hours. They climbed with one small backpack, so almost without survival gear in the mountains. When they arrived at the ledge after the second gully, they could, given the spent time, decide for descent. The route is called Južni raz and goes along the raz so you can't miss much if you have some experience finding natural passages or at least the multitude of pegs sticking in the wall. You gain that experience if you climb several routes with experienced alpinists. A completed course, no matter how successful, doesn't give those experiences.
In my opinion they made so many mistakes that I can say it is negligence. If this trend continues, we will all get at least a bit "stuck" and before dark order transport at taxpayers' expense.
Of course I am glad that in the end everything ended happily.
Alpinism is not tourism.
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ljubitelj gora8. 09. 2013 18:21:52
GRZS:

A lot of work for our rescuers,
Units from GRS Bovec, Kamnik, Ljubljana, Rateče and Tržič were involved in the actions.

To date we record 310 interventions, in the same period last year 321 rescues were performed. Helicopter was involved in rescues 116 times, most interventions recorded in Bohinj, Tolmin and Kamnik. Among rescued 122 uninjured, sadly 23 dead too! And one more stereotype needs breaking:
zadrega
among rescued only 3 Czech citizens and 212 Slovenes!
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pikica18. 09. 2013 19:13:57
How else, we Slovenes live here 12 months a year, Czechs only a couple weeks.
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tol8. 09. 2013 20:06:47
@rohc

I agree that it is very nice to rack up kilometers with an experienced alpinist, but today's spirit of the times unfortunately doesn't allow it on many sections....

It is hard to get an experienced climbing alpinist, because who today, with lack of time, enjoys every year, again and again, driving eager course participants and younger trainees on threes and fours... they have their "plans and schemes" - and most experienced have families, careers and those free days they have won't always dedicate to eager trainees. They already sacrifice a lot of time for the alpinist school

The problem is there, because the Alpinist School produces (in strong sections) approx. 10 + course participants. The section thus has a school every year, which already takes quite a few experienced alpinists + 10 eager younger trainees who finished school the previous year.

So for 20 "inexperienced" you need 20 experienced alpinists.

Reality is such that on most sections they climb among themselves also trainee + smaller trainee or mP + mp or sp + mp....

If you want to go climbing and get "experience" that's just how it is...

and such teams choose "easy" targets, which the southern raz of Skuta also is... and if such a route presents an orientation and climbing problem for you, which is obvious and can be seen from afar where it runs (along the raz) and which is equipped almost so that you need almost nothing of your own, then I really don't know if alpinism is for such people....
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ljubitelj gora8. 09. 2013 20:55:23
At 1:17, three alpinists after climbing the route in Mali Mojstrovka descended below the north wall of Mali Mojstrovka via the gully towards Vršič. Since they were not sure if they were on the right path, mountain rescuers from the GRS Kranjska Gora station went to meet them and safely escorted the alpinists to Vršič.

GRZS: "What good alpinists are crawling around the 300m wall of Mali Mojstrovka at 1:30 am?". Then hello mom?
We don't want to be cynical, but everything has its limits....
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Trobec9. 09. 2013 22:04:53
310 interventions, among the rescued 212 Slovenes. So the total number of rescued was at least 310 (actually more, since some rescues involve 2, 3 or even more). So Slovenes less than 2/3, maybe only half.
And given that (as pikica says) we live here, for me this is a relatively small share or, put differently, foreigners are proportionally more often involved in accidents.

As for the comment below... such a one I would really whack with a stick on the butt! I hope they at least get the bill (though small, no helicopter).
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JusAvgustin11. 09. 2013 09:15:33
http://www.pzs.si/novice.php?pid=8533
common sense in hands yeah. We hammer that up here all the time but some still don't get itjezen
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ljubitelj gora11. 09. 2013 10:27:27
For "crknt"jezikjezen
Around the first September weekend I traditionally hang out at the national costumes day in Kamnik, where we drink some beer and then mess around with rubber cars. This year everything different. The story starts Friday afternoon, peaks Saturday night and leaves a bunch of lessons.

As Primož already wrote, on Friday afternoon we headed to Logarska (which we had planned since the Dolomites), where we first chilled, and on Saturday headed to the hills. Due to my pace of a half-dead chamois, Neža and I arrived late under the wall. There was heavy traffic in the route, so we waited a long time at the entry, but still entered. The mists cleared and we boldly overcame the difficulties that the route offers. E.g. friction for crknt right away in the first pitch, chimney three ("real feel" is not three), wonderful slabs, four in the route, rockfall in the route etc. Then came another chimney that exits under the overhang. Boldly I went right, where I found no more pegs or any other hint of the route's course. Ok. It took quite some time to hammer the peg. Then I find the route again. Due to too much friction I belay, and when Neža arrives we continue. Too far right! Then I traverse again and after breaking off a large foothold and a small slip I find the route again. But the meter was full (and more), night approaching and no further progress. We wrapped ourselves in astronaut foil and around 20h called 112.

Sometime before that Luk's SMS flies in if I'm going to Staniča on Sunday. Huh…

Since we were very lucky, the Celje GRS guys had a work action at Okrešelj and immediately located our position and came for us. Meanwhile at our belay a serious conversation with myself and the higher power. Then Peter descended from the sky to us, a little later Brane, who due to the force of circumstances became Janko. At midnight, thanks to Brane, in base 1 I could already participate in singing that one, got Nejc's comment that we have enough gear for Matterhorn. And to inform them before we go. And better ciknt than fliknt. Then Peter and Neža also arrived. YUHU! In base 2 we also learned about our basketball win and then headed via the Turkish gully to Okrešelj, where we arrived around half past 3. With Neža we thus uninvitedly crashed the party, where we of course figured out that it's all because I don't eat Savinja acorn (Marjeta exposed me right away).

THANKS to the entire GRS Celje team, for being there and for giving us food and drink and bedding and a smile on our faces. And promise that we will return to Okrešelj with beer and rested for dusting, cleaning, transporting the bivvy etc.

It was felt, the school was strong.

Photo material this time poor, but meaningful.

Source:
http://www.aozeleznicar.org/index.php/domov/771-vzhodna-v-mali-rinki-nea-grs-in-jaz-ter-robijev-komentar-na-mestu
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