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Storžič

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šodrovec4. 04. 2011 14:10:51
It seems interesting and good to me too that this was posted. Both sides. Incredible how different human views are on the same thing and how quickly some facts "change". It depends on the role and viewpoint of the participant. I involuntarily noticed some undertone where one can detect a clear difference between gratitude (!) and "gratitude" in words...

And yes, forums are (mainly) a good thing because they enable public debate. The level of it always depends on the participants, as do the conclusions. Only those that each person makes for themselves are important.

Anyway, it happened, it was posted (I believe well-intentioned), maybe it will be useful to some of us... A nameless post on an anonymous forum can't harm, unless someone reveals too much about themselves.
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JusAvgustin4. 04. 2011 15:01:41
Yeah, are you normal?! From one post that was primarily meant for "fools" who go into the hills in snow conditions with chains, without an ice axe, in short without proper gear, a "he said - she said" debate developed... Dear trail follower, as I already wrote you on ZS, I certainly didn't and have no intention of mentioning anyone or pointing a finger at them, saying: those were the two! I didn't utter a word about name, place, etc... You dug this up yourselves by not swallowing certain of my remarks (Borut withdrew from the debate long ago, it seems too little to him, as you know why...). That's enough about Juš this, Juš that, Juš the other, swallow the chocolate, he froze... You two have no idea what it means to shiver from cold (if you're still shivering, it's okay...), to get frostbite and not feel your fingers for a month... Already on the way (descent) I didn't advise you, but we talked about proper gear and its use... I won't dig further, as that's oil already used up before it was discovered... I highly appreciate and respect the opinion of my climbing partner Matej, as he's not the type to deal with anything on the forum, but this time you really stepped on his tail. Same for Borut, who shone your non plus ultra flashlight for you, which by the way really needs a black guy in the package to power it. And about Juš, who was breaking his knees looking for the best passages in the steep forest so we safely reached the car. On the way, chatting about kegs of beer and if you step on the rope, it's immediately piss... That was just to boost morale and to forget the situation, which wasn't exactly rosy. First and foremost, we're people and we help each other, but if someone reminds what's wrong, that something isn't appropriate, given 35+ years of experience, it somehow doesn't sit right with me. It doesn't sit right with us, as I'm writing on behalf of all. It wasn't a person who got you down, but a team of friends who, oh look, just that day after shift climbed "kramarca". What if there were no kramarca? Now you can write gossip on the forum and talk "your" side of the story etc..., etc... What if you had stayed up there? No phone, no descent possibility, no light... I emphasize once more! The post was at most meant for youngsters and those convinced the path is dry; it was a warning, not pinning medals for bravery or egomania, as you say. If someone nudges me, you can be sure I won't stay quiet, especially if I have friends behind me who can confirm many things, including what wasn't talked about here... I too have experienced a cold shower multiple times, but I hung my "ears", instead of twisting and turning my side of the story, which turned out to be my mistake, period! Regarding our equipment: believe me, we were prepared for the worst; no food in the form of sausage, but there were high-energy bars, drinks weren't lacking either; in the worst case, we would break through to the bivouac and bivouac there (you know the bivouac under Storžič...). There were enough clothes too (tell me how I shouldn't freeze if we were moving 10m per minute?). The rest I already thought through myself, like Matej and Borut; suddenly beer doesn't suit us anymore, for Jalovec I recommend hiring a GV!
And one more thing: if you had listened to the advice and descended via the fifth gully (you remember your reaction...), you would have been at the car in one to one and a half hours...
Otherwise, we accompanied you to the car only because beer means that much to us... Please...

Alpin: kramarca is ideal for the afternoon after shift, the whole gully is in shade, temperatures were suitable too, and when you reach the snowfield, the sun greets you... Loh, try it once.

Juš
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dogna4. 04. 2011 15:45:34
While reading this, goosebumps run down my back. Do you ladies realize that you could have ended up in the black chronicle?! The guys did really heartfelt work getting you down to the valley. I love the hills myself, but I'm over 60 and in winter I prefer to observe the high mountains from the valley, happily walking where it's safe. I think the ladies deserve a sermon, without taking offense. You know the saying: the mountain isn't crazy, the crazy one is... Guys, all congratulations for your heartiness; to the ladies: you have to admit that the years of youth have passed. I admitted it to myself, and it's still nice for me. Guys, I wish you many nice climbing hours.
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Wine4. 04. 2011 15:49:43
On Saturday climbed Kramarco, descent through Peto žrelo.. Conditions solid, jumps demanding... nice weather, adrenaline tour nasmeh
1
2
3
4
5
slope between 3rd and 4th jump6
4th ice jump7
machines above 4th jump8
exit from 4th jump9
crosses a little below the summit ridge10
at the top... all difficulties are behind us11
back through Peto žrelo12
entrance to Peto žrelo13
the Žrelo stretches14
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Jovan Cukut4. 04. 2011 16:14:25
Sincere congratulations, Wine. It looks like Kramarca will slip away from me this year due to the weather.
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JusAvgustin4. 04. 2011 16:20:10
On Wednesday it would probably still be possible, temperature quite low, but bypasses possible at all jumps, if you bypass it's relatively easy, but if you do the original it's harder. I see the "biggest" problems in the chimney above the bivouac and at the exit to the snowfield (but the last jump was completely blocked with snow and ice... At least it was nasmeh, quite bold... congrats to you, wine
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GregorC4. 04. 2011 16:42:04
Obviously the guys would have done better if they had called GRS and gone down to the valley themselves. The girls' reaction would be interesting then, when they would probably get a bill for the rescue. Otherwise, guys, hats off for what you did. And it's right that such things are written for others to think about.
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turbo4. 04. 2011 16:46:01
Quote:
"""it's like that, that in the mountains unfortunately even very very experienced ones end their life path . . . The saddest thing is that everyone ends their life path somewhere. Some even in the mountains."""

What's sad about that???
Everything ends once and almost certainly with some purpose. Everyone, absolutely everyone lives from birth to death. Nothing more, nothing less. How long that path is, from birth to death . . . And who says that before and after that there's nothing? I mean, who can confidently claim that neither before nor after there's nothing . . . maybe right now (here, now) we're just "fixing mistakes" from before, so that later (somewhere there) it will be nicer . . .
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Gorski lovec4. 04. 2011 17:55:15
ladies from Ljubljana; leftovers at Šmarki, pls... I'd leave you up there... with chocolate, oops, Lindtvelik nasmeh, and a worthwhile jacket...
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MaticMrva4. 04. 2011 19:16:25
Such tension between some and others among hikers I'm not used to at all and you've greatly surprised me in this moment. Girls, tell our mountain guardian angel (whoever it is) the biggest thanks and of course hats off to the three members that you SUCCESSFULLY completed the descent TOGETHER. The idea of going at 12h to a 2000m peak is really a bit inappropriate move, given that darkness fell then, if I'm not mistaken, around 19h. Otherwise I don't count myself among experienced hikers, so I won't spill wisdom anymore. Because whoever spills wisdom, supposedly gets it first up the ass. So I'll rather stay quiet velik nasmeh

LP
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ljubitelj gora4. 04. 2011 19:52:06
Is all this necessary and then let's organize a group tour to some mountain or a meeting of mountain lovers.
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heinz4. 04. 2011 19:52:45
Of course it's right that the case was mentioned here, since the portal is also intended for warnings against wrong ideas about conditions. Regardless of how nicely they got along during the descent, joked etc, I would also almost certainly report about it on Hribi-h in the following days. As a warning to all others - clearly.
Regarding Storžič, it seems to me that many take it too lightly. And how many has it already taken?!... Too many. Maybe just because of that.
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urhh4. 04. 2011 21:26:37
Everyone (who read this debate), who from now on finds themselves with inadequate equipment on some summit and realizes they can't descend safely, will rather risk than ask anyone for help. Realize a bit the weight of your public bashing of the female hikers.
From experienced alpinists I would expect patience and forbearance. From both sides, that they take it as a good experience and that joy over potentially saved life should suffice for you. Don't we good people go to the mountains who are tired of just such lynching from the valleys?
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jprim4. 04. 2011 21:41:49
I think a bit differently than you, urhh, everyone who read this and understands the weight and essence of this message will think well before setting out on any such tour at all - of course aware that they are not up to it.
LP!
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Zebdi4. 04. 2011 22:07:16
jprim, those who understand the weight and essence of this message will in any case think carefully before going on a tour. Nobody goes on a tour with the intention of getting into trouble - and here I completely agree with urhh. The warning is certainly useful, but such lynching (and mentioning bills for rescue) can achieve exactly the opposite effect from the desired one. Yes, of course it's right to raise awareness among people, but it's wrong to threaten with rescue costs. We probably don't want those who get into trouble to be afraid to ask for help? We remember Repov kot, right?


P.S. To be clear - I in no way want to diminish the importance of what Juš&co did. The lady herself wrote that she definitely wouldn't descend slippery grass, so even less on snow. From what's written, it's clear they obviously weren't able to descend on their own, period. The rest of the explanation of how, why, etc. is meaningless. The guys got them down to the valley, end. I hope they learn something from this..

Lp!
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Snow Leppard4. 04. 2011 22:44:51
Mentioning bills? Are the guys to blame if the army, PZS and the state can't agree among themselves who will pay for rescues? It's quite right to mention rescue bills. Better that people know what awaits them if they call GRS, whether they call or not is their judgment and whoever decides on such things based on price belongs on Šmarna gora, not in the high mountains, especially not in winter.

Regarding the "beating" of the female hikers: they themselves don't know how close to death they came, and it's only right that such behavior is strictly condemned.
Again, if someone thinks because of such posts they wouldn't ask for help, then such a person doesn't belong in the high mountains either.

And also, Juš's first post wasn't offensive or derogatory at all, it was just a clear warning to all who might be tempted by similar feats, a warning that we've seen and heard plenty of in Slovenia, but obviously they still don't work...
I fully understand his sharp reaction to the ungrateful and rude response, I probably would have said something like that earlier...

So, the point of the whole discussion: let's be aware that winter high mountains are not for everyone and that winter there usually lasts far into April and often into May...
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dragica.gnjezda@gmail.com4. 04. 2011 22:50:07
But what bothers me is Jusa's arrogance. Man, now we have to ask him what we are satisfied with and if we can post it on the forum. I am very satisfied with chain crampons, all I know who got them, likewise, but obviously he has something unresolved with himself or someone else.
Stezosledka described the situation nicely, they are grateful to them from the heart, that's how I understood, but apparently Nastja shouldn't have said that he was cold. She hurt his ego.
Otherwise of course hats off to their self-sacrifice.
So Stezosledka, get yourself chain crampons, you won't regret it. In them you wouldn't slip on grass by accident either. Not me.
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Snow Leppard4. 04. 2011 22:55:23
Of course, I also have chain crampons and think they are great. For jumping around the car on snowy roads, for some winter walk on "dog paths", but not for the high mountains.
Whoever doesn't know the conditions on two-thousanders in winter shouldn't even try to understand what this is about...
Regarding grass...quality boots with Vibram sole, not chains...
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dragica.gnjezda@gmail.com4. 04. 2011 23:03:33
I have quality boots with Vibram soles, but on slippery grass it doesn't help at all. And not on some other slippery surface either.
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Hribovc884. 04. 2011 23:07:19
Stezosledka, excellently writtenvelik nasmehmežikanje, but hand on heart, the time for ascent to Storžič was really late, that has to be admitted, everything else you wrote is completely in place.

But so as not to completely criticize Juš, I have to say hats off for starting this topic, since we can all learn something from all the posts above. Some extremely offensive and negatively minded posts are of course excepted, Tadej or Rok will have to censor a bit againvelik nasmehnasmehmežikanje

Good night and safe steps to all colleaguesvelik nasmehnasmehmežikanje
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