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Where to go with a dog?

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VanSims20. 07. 2011 14:28:54
I fully agree with turbo.

Those who think differently are us who go to nature for peace, recreation and pleasure, not those who think they can do whatever they want in it. It's not just about dog owners.

And even in the case of dogs, the disturbing one is the human. He brought it along and if he doesn't have it under control, it's like he's causing damage himself.
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heinz20. 07. 2011 18:57:55
I agree with turbo too; and literally, as it was meant. I think it's clear to everyone what VanSims and the others want to say..
Some are annoyed by people too, not just animals. Anyway, they say that whoever doesn't like animals can't love people either. Heard that before?
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VanSims21. 07. 2011 19:57:31
Heard it? Too many times! And exactly from those on dog and recreation forums who advocate chaos in this area. Their logic: whoever doesn't like my dog (often read: whoever isn't thrilled that my dog does whatever it pleases with them) doesn't like dogs in general. And whoever doesn't like dogs then doesn't like all animals and whoever doesn't like animals doesn't like people. Cheap propaganda!

In reality, there are good owners and consequently good dogs. They even predominate. Those 5-10% bad and irresponsible owners give a bad name to everyone.

I try to be patient. But how to be patient with an owner whose dog attacks you and he just grins or even yells at you if you run and jump, and if you defend yourself against the dog he might even attack you.

And when some psycho walks two unleashed boxers on Šmarna gora, running freely back and forth on the path, and you ask him to leash them, he starts insulting and abusing you?

And when a dog barks at you while you're walking in the WWI trenches near Svinjak and you're just waiting for it to jump into the trench on your head, when you come out it charges at you again and luckily you hit it nicely with pepper spray and calm it down, then the psycho says to you: 'I can spray you too', and his companion yells at you too.

You're walking on Rožnik and someone with a dog comes, sends it at you and grins: "Yeah, it bites otherwise!"

...

...

and countless more examples...

And there are more and more such psychos in our forests, mountains, walking paths, bike trails,.. And this doesn't happen only to me but I read about it everywhere and these are the few who dare to say it out loud. Here katjuša2 gave some examples, on other forums I've heard tons of such stories. Some don't even dare to go to e.g. the most critical Ljubljana spots on topogledno (Šmarna gora, PST, Golovec, Rožnik,...).

Because some recharge their batteries and heal complexes with their dogs and the shit they do. Just like some drive cars and make shit on the roads, some beat their families, some do even worse...

Times are what they are, but we're not guilty, those who want to release our anxieties, frustrations and daily troubles in a positive way e.g. with exercise in nature, if someone has an annoying boss, nasty wife, lost job,...
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turbo21. 07. 2011 20:17:15
VanSims: *** hit it nicely with pepper spray and calm it down ***

VanSims, usually people don't carry pepper spray with them. Especially not in the mountains. From your writings I can easily see that one day you'll write: *** that guy got on my nerves, so I sprayed him a bit***

And yes, I also go to nature for peace, pleasure, recreation... and that I retreated to my own, that is off-paths, into solitude, wasn't because of psychos and/or similar. People were the ones who... to not say what.

VanSims, devil is it, isn't it? You meet psychos in forests, mountains, walking paths, bike trails, on roads... come on reveal to me (us), how much pepper spray do you use daily, weekly, monthly???
And on another forum you write that border signs get on your nerves, that you'll remove them personally in the future..
Nice! First dogs, then owners, then signs that shouldn't be there! What's next?

P.S. I don't have a nasty wife, see the boss a few times a year, job somewhat secure, salary so-so, little dog sadly long gone too. You go ahead releasing anxieties, frustrations and troubles, I don't need to. That little bit that presses me, if any, evaporates in the first hour of rushing off-path-

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VanSims21. 07. 2011 20:47:41
turbo: if I hadn't had pepper spray then maybe I wouldn't be writing this today. Could be I'd gotten away with just a bite or become another Meglič. And if Meglič had something like that with him, he'd probably be healthy today instead of with a fucked-up life. But then according to you and dog psycho logic he'd be the bad one who attacked the dogs, right?

And pepper spray isn't even remotely as dangerous as a dog bite. Pepper spray hurts and stings for 10-15 minutes then it passes. No consequences for people or dogs.

People don't bother me. How different we are, huh? But those who make shit (not just with dogs) do. I could label you a misanthrope, talk about what people have done to you...

But I don't plan to retreat anywhere. Why? Because I don't run from problems. I'll walk where I want. Even on lonely off-paths if I feel like it or on the most crowded path. I have the right to that!

Dog owners make shit, we have to be patient and even retreat somewhere because of them. Why again?

Sure I meet decent people too, we chat a bit and go our ways. Even with dogs. It sniffs you a bit, they pull it back and that's it. Why can most dog owners be normal?
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VanSims21. 07. 2011 20:51:14
AND WHERE DID I WRITE THAT I WOULD DISMANTLE THE SIGNS?

Can you explain to me? Just because I noted that one sign (near the one mentioned by keber1 on the via ferrata on Stol) is dismantled, doesn't mean it was me.

Nonsense!

OK, I corrected it there and explicitly marked whom I quoted, so it's clear even to those who read superficially.

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pikica121. 07. 2011 22:51:43
VanSims, it's no wonder if some dog bites you since you're annoying as a gadfly. You are bothered by service in huts, tolls, parking fees, dogs and their owners. Go on, meet a bear already and spray it first. Last year you were already raging like this, complaining about that toilet paper so there was no more side to open. This year you're chasing those dogs to unconsciousness. Now you've dragged those hysterical Ljubljana dogs to this forum too, puke.
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VanSims21. 07. 2011 23:17:04
pikica1: You admit they're snappy, right? mežikanje

Yeah, the year before last it was Lady velik nasmeh

What about next year, only šlogarc knows! jezik
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Žiga2222. 07. 2011 00:47:40
Meh, the biggest flaw is that anyone who wants can have a dog.

From there all problems follow; untrained animals (here I mean the owner first, then the dog), snappy dogs, shat trails, chased wildlife, barking everywhere, neglected and abandoned dogs, etc.

If you ask me, everyone who wants a dog should have a license - like for a car -, which they'd get with a few-week course on ethics and how to care for a dog. For potentially more dangerous breeds (doberman etc.) even stricter conditions with some psycho tests. Later, mandatory training course for the dog with the owner.

Lots of folks don't get that a dog is a huge responsibility not just of the owner to the animal but also to the surroundings, then we have various VanSimses who get every (dog) hair up their nose. I agree with some views VanSims mentioned, but on the other hand dog owners are the complete other extreme ("yeah my dog won't do anything to you, doesn't bite at all" - next thing the pup chews your ankle/arm/butt/pants).
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VanSims22. 07. 2011 18:27:19
Just let me reply to turbo's thing that people usually don't carry pepper sprays with them, especially not in the mountains.

Specifically for mountains I really don't know, but more and more cyclists, runners and other recreational folks carry them. They're sold in sports and recreation stores too. Some are advertised as specially made for dogs, which is probably just marketing, because regular somewhat more concentrated pepper spray works fine too.

Responsible dog owners use them too for cases of attacks by off-leash dogs on theirs that are leashed. There have been countless cases where enraged dogs of stronger and more aggressive breeds literally tore apart e.g. smaller or weaker ones. And even in such a case you shouldn't intervene with pepper, right turbo (which will incidentally hit the attacked one too but is that really a small price to protect it)? Even when innocent animals suffer, which are obviously dearer to you than people?

In short, people are more aware, especially after the tragic case of Mr. Meglič, where it turned out these psychos have support in the highest structures of this country. That's why there are such lax and liberal laws in this area (as Žiga already noted), unmatched in Europe.

Funny how pepper bothers them, but what they do with dogs we've seen... That's why those off-leash ones are so aggressive.

Oh, those bullmastiffs were innocent puppies before too, right, who never wanted to hurt anyone. But after Baričevič's death, tons of people came forward who they'd attacked before, including a lady whom Roterjeva roughly yelled at during one such attack because she dared to scream.
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joža x22. 07. 2011 18:43:03
Where with a dog? Leave it at home, it's a guard dog, in the mountains not at all welcome by most.
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turbo22. 07. 2011 18:44:33
DON'T GET IT zmedenjezen U&Q asked where to go with her little dog. I listed some suggestions, mostly where there won't be too much crowd. Heinz and Skalar50 also gave some suggestions, advice.
And then the whiner VanSims shows up with his traumas that he experiences everywhere he goes. And he goes armed with spray . . . thank god we're not in USA, or he'd buy some heavier caliber instead of spray . . .
Damn soul, VanSims, stay between four walls if you're so threatened.
Look again at the start of this debate and look-read what U&Q asked!!! For yourself find some other forum, health, psychiatric, whatever . . . if you happen to have any idea where U&Q should go with her doggy so they'll have a nice time, then just write it!
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ajda22. 07. 2011 19:45:40
When after a couple of months I realized the guard dog wouldn't ever be one, I took him to the mountains with me. Well, that suited him well for all 13 years. Now he's retired, just occasionally we cut across some plateau together.
but now relies on him to guard the house, even the cat has descended to her rug1
but in the mountains he knew how to enjoy2
quickly another step for a 16-year-old dog3
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VanSims22. 07. 2011 19:51:50
So to repeat and elaborate what I already wrote but was overlooked:

- dog on leash and not tied around the hand or clipped in a way that we can release it in time if it runs e.g. into a precipice (accident of a hiker a few years ago under Planjava)

- dog should be properly shod at least at altitudes over about 1500 m, unless it's a rescue dog or one often in mountains. Dog's paws hurt too when walking barefoot.

- dog should have plenty of water. Dog gets thirsty too.

- dog can get injured too, so first aid isn't amiss.

- dog has much better stamina than human but still we can't just take it on a multi-hour march on a stamina-demanding trail right away. Gradually here too.

- dogs don't belong in huts, where they're also banned here.

- be considerate to other people in front of huts and at rest areas

Dangers that a free-roaming dog brings even to its owner are varied. Some are known or at least should be to all owners: dog can e.g. attract a bear or other animal, scare cows (or even a bull) and cause a stampede,... If we leave aside direct threat to other hikers and wildlife for now,...

Fewer people think that dog can e.g. run into a snake! Since it can easily miss it. Or into a hunter's trap,...

Until 2004 hunters could shoot a dog if it roamed free. In e.g. Austria (and probably most European countries) they can still legally do it (for those who roam abroad with it too)!

WHERE WITH A DOG?

Roughly the rule holds that on trails where you don't need hands to progress. That's most technically easy trails, unexposed, mainly at low elevations.

Also some partly difficult ones are acceptable. From those I've done e.g.:

- trail to Baba above Hrastnik from saddle Zavrate (just before summit a bit steep and short rope, maybe tie dog provisionally some 50 m before summit). Further to Ostri vrh no problem, just the ridge slightly exposed).

-from Roblek to Begunjščica (just below summit a bit steep). NOT suitable from Kalvarija in my view.

-Srednječavenska trail to Čaven. Nice continuation to Kuceljin/or Modrasovec. On return to Tunels from Bavčarjeva hut slightly steep.

- From Zgornje Jezersko to Žmitkov špic. Tie dog again some 50 m before summit where we'll climb a bit with rope.

- From Zaka to Mala Osojnica (maybe issue somewhat steep steps).

...

But I think dogs don't belong on difficult and of course higher rated trails. Of these maybe to Okrešelj from Logarska, which doesn't seem difficult to me at all as this portal says, slightly unsuitable is the alternative shepherd's one.

So, enough? mežikanje

I have nothing against dogs, go to mountains with them, I like animals too, just respect us too who don't want dealings with them!
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TejaB22. 07. 2011 20:15:26
On all marked trails on Pohorje. Only the one from MB from cable car to Bellevue is very crowded, elsewhere you hardly meet anyone. At several Pohorje huts I noticed water bowls for dogs outside, so they're welcome. And Uršlja gora, Paški kozjak, Smrekovec and similar hills around 1500-2000 m. All have marked trails leading to them, no crowds.
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VanSims22. 07. 2011 20:38:21
Exception maybe trail to Šumik, which has quite some ropes and harder spots.

With the bowl outside probably indicates dog not allowed inside. That's how on some German highway rest stops dogs have their 'Hundebar' (water and briquettes usually) in front of restaurant where of course no entry.
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heinz22. 07. 2011 21:59:40
VanSims: - theories are needed sure, but still wonder how many of your dogs you've ever taken to mountains, or did they take you?mežikanje
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VanSims22. 07. 2011 22:41:49
I haven't taken any yet, but I've looked around the net a bit about it.

I know you have a dog. Tell me from practice too... mežikanje
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FLEKSARCA23. 07. 2011 10:34:14
Well mom, hope the pepper spray doesn't destroy the plastic on the monitor, because Van Sims will pour a whole dose into it nowvelik nasmeh.
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Pastirica23. 07. 2011 12:10:09
Well, here I don't know if it would work, even in nature. So a leash sometimes comes in handy.jezenvelik nasmeh
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