Loerst - Recent messages

Kal (above Komna; 2002 m) is quite nice, but rarely visited peak. Years ago I already "visited" it in fog and snow from the side of Velika vrata, but only at home I realized that I actually messed up and by mistake conquered the neighboring elevation 1999. And since then I have it on my list. Some connect it in a traverse further towards Velika vrata, Glava za Bajto, Čelo etc. and that was also my original plan, but then it turned out that it's quite ok also as a standalone goal, so also a new topic.

At Vršič there was already chaos in the morning. From Erjavčeva koča onwards there were about 200 cars parked absolutely everywhere, many half on the road. At the top several foreigners simply parked one lane and got out, as a result the bus could not pass, one guy also towed his mega yacht behind him, a herd of sheep also parked in the middle of the road, no doubt about it. Next time I'll go via Predel.

I started at the village Na Skala, at the barrier, which somewhat lengthens the route, but at the same time is also about 240 m higher than the starting point Pod Zjabci, which is noticeable. And there's also an ice-cold stream nearby, which is a real blessing in the summer heat on the way back. Then on the old unmarked (hunting?) path to Planina za Skalo. Maybe it's because I've gone several times, but to me the path seems better and more trodden each time. From Planina on the marked path towards Velika vrata, but somewhere halfway you have to turn right onto a barely visible path towards Mala vrata. At the beginning it's still somewhat traceable, then it starts to disappear more and more. Still that's no problem, because the terrain is easy, the saddle is also clearly visible and it's thus completely obvious in which direction to go, even if a bit on your own.

From Mala vrata to the summit of Kal due to the rocky terrain the path is not visible, but an extremely large number of cairns are placed, more than there are markings in many places. Practically every 20 m there's one, which extremely facilitates navigation, thanks to the predecessors! Technically not demanding, but this is a distinct karst world with crevices and numerous abysses, so you have to be a bit careful, and also go slower.

At the summit of Kal the heat does its thing and when I snack, I conclude for the day. Along the way I also hop to elevation 1999, then return on the same path back. In the whole day I met only one hiker and a record number of marmots, in the small valley below Mala vrata there were apparently at every other stone. And of course I don't have a photo of even one, because they always ran off the moment before I pressed the button.

Hello everyone,

yesterday when I went for a short walk in the forest I "collected" three ticks on myself in just one hour. It made me think...

What do you think, does it make sense to get vaccinated against tick-borne diseases? Apparently especially Gorenjska ticks are among the most infectious in Europe. High mountains are not dangerous, the problem is walking in forests.

@DVas Maybe you'll be interested - the border between Austria and Slovenia is defined in various ways, involving a combination of a description, geodetic coordinates and a border plan. Interestingly, this completely depends on the individual section and each one needs to be looked at separately.

Well, specifically for Ostrv and Grad, which I mentioned as candidates for verification, it is the case that on their sections it is explicitly stated that the border runs along the watershed (i.e. along the top of the ridge) and NOT as a direct line between two border stones. So both mentioned belong to the list of Slovenian peaks.

Kal (above Komna; 2002 m) is quite nice, but rarely visited peak. Years ago I already "visited" it in fog and snow from Velika vrata side, but only at home I realized that I actually messed up and by mistake conquered neighboring point 1999. And since then I have it on my list. Some connect it in a traverse further towards Velika vrata, Glava za Bajto, Čelo etc. and that was also my original plan, but then it turned out that it's perfectly ok also as a standalone goal.

At Vršič there was already chaos in the morning. From Erjavčeva koča onwards there were about 200 cars parked absolutely everywhere, many half on the road. At the top several foreigners simply parked one lane and got out, as a result the bus couldn't pass, one guy also dragged his mega yacht behind him, a herd of sheep also parked in the middle of the road, no doubt about it. Next time I'll go via Predel.

I started at the village Na Skali, at the barrier, which slightly lengthens the route, but at the same time is also about 240 m higher than the starting point Pod Zjabci, which is noticeable. There's also an ice-cold stream nearby, which is a real blessing in the summer heat on the way back. Then along the old unmarked (hunting?) path to Planina za Skalo. Maybe it's because I've gone several times already, but to me the path seems better and more trodden each time. From the mountain pasture along the marked path towards Velika vrata, but somewhere halfway you have to turn right onto a barely visible path towards Mala vrata. At the beginning it's still somewhat traceable, then it starts to disappear more and more. Still that's no problem because the terrain is easy, the saddle is also clearly visible and it's completely obvious which direction to go, even if a bit on your own.

From Mala vrata to the summit of Kal due to rocky terrain the path isn't visible, but an extremely large number of cairns have been placed, more than there are markings in many places. Practically every 20 m there's one, which makes navigation extremely easier, thanks to predecessors! Technically not demanding, but it's a distinct karst world with karren and numerous abysses, so you have to be a bit careful, and also go slower.

At the summit of Kal the heat does its thing and when I snack I finish for the day. On the way I also hop to point 1999, then return the same way back. In the whole day I met only one hiker and a record number of marmots, in the small valley below Mala vrata there were supposedly at every other stone. And of course I don't have a photo of even one, because they always ran off the moment before I pressed the button.

@padez attention, DVas was looking for the highest point (!) of each municipality, not the highest peak. Only in about a third of cases is it the same, the rest are just points on slopes, side peaks or in lower municipalities unnamed bumps. The third column just says which named point is nearby, you actually get the highest point by clicking on the geodetic coordinates in the first column.

Vremščica - as written, the peak is at 1025.5 = 1026 m

Sežana - here you run into the known problem of defining what a peak is. Obrovnik (700.18 m) has only 27 m prominence, where usually 30 m is taken as absolute minimum. Kokoš isn't either, because the peak is about 30 m in Italy. So the highest peak of Sežana municipality is Ter (673 m, prominence 163 m), as turbo wrote.

Črnomelj - same thing as with Sežana. The named Šiderlang in the article has 14 m prominence. If they decided that's the peak, fine. But if we take p30 as minimum criterion, then the highest peak of Črnomelj is unnamed point 896. In general in Slovenia we have several thousand peaks without names and several thousand named peaks that aren't really peaks.

@DVas if you happen to run out, let me know, I'll send you data for 555 Croatian municipalities and cities

@DVas Bravo for the effort put in, the website is extremely beautiful in design! I thought I was the only one a bit crazy about mountain statistics and cartography, but I see I'm not the only one.

@DVas Super, thanks for the post.

I quickly looked, due to time constraints only the Karawanks, because it's the fastest and I have four things:

a) How exactly did you arrive at the heights? Because according to the DMR1 model derived from LIDAR, at some peaks your data differs minimally from the model. E.g. Vrtača has 2179.32 m (on the list 2180 m), Krkotnik has 2114.72 m (2113 m), Tolsta Košuta 2056.73 m (2058 m)... Lidar has an estimated standard error +-15 cm, with you there is a bit more difference. I'm not claiming you're wrong, because nowhere does it say you have to start exactly from DMR1, you could go directly to points from the Lidar cloud, but you have larger values in some places, smaller in others.

b) Did you make a list of Slovenian two-thousanders or just two-thousanders? Because up there you also have Križnik and Velika glava on Peca, which are already quite concretely on the Austrian side. Additional check would also be needed for Grad and Ostrv, because maybe the highest point is a meter over the border.

c) Tolsta Košuta has two peaks and both have prominence more than 30 m (you have only the eastern peak on the list)

d) "Unnamed candidate" on the list is another Gamsovka. There are four in total, but your 30 m prominence criterion is met by two.

I've never heard of this Skutnik before, which by my standards is always a good sign. Definitely worth taking a closer look.

The friendly warden at the start of the road to Mangrt tries to keep order, but there's already a jam right at the lower junction. So I only manage to get through to the pasture with difficulty. There's a whole circus there too, but as expected you just need to move a bit away and then beloved peace sets in.

First up over the Stože avalanche, which I cross a bit too quickly. So I only find the path some 100 m higher. The path around Vršič is quite trodden, also not exposed at all (from the contours it seemed it would be, but it's not). Below Skutnik I lose it, but the dwarf pine isn't too dense and you can nicely go around. Then I can't go any further. Right before the ridge the only option visible is some steep gully, but when it gets to about II and you can't see ahead anymore, it's obvious this won't be it. With difficulty I turn transversely straight onto the ridge, but that's also not quite simple, plus crumbly and exposed, so this won't be the right path either.

I stare blankly for a while, wander around, then for lack of better ideas I descend lower and snack while enjoying the nice views and chamois walking past me. Unfortunately I only now read and looked closer at Darinka's post from 2024, where the key spot is on her photo 16. I did pass there, but the gully was quite polished (more than it looks on her photos) and I was convinced I had to go higher. I returned the same way so I wouldn't get lost again. So the summit remained unconquered, but the day was still beautiful. Anyway now I have an excuse to go again.

On Sunday, start at the ski jumps in Planica (parking 4 EUR/day), then a leisurely walk to Dom v Tamarju. Then a completely different story follows. From the junction behind the hut to the top of Srednja Ponca it's only 2.44 km and over this distance we ascend 1,110 m, which means an average slope of about 27 degrees. The steepness continues from start to finish and doesn't let up even for a moment. The markings are heavily faded and in the upper part sometimes you have to look twice where to go and which way, but generally the path is still well-trodden and fairly well visible. There is little protection, because more isn't really needed; generally they are in good condition (if I remember correctly, a couple of pitons are pulled out, but in unimportant places). The lower part is quite overgrown and in some places a bit of saw work would come in handy.

The original plan was Visoka Ponca, but from Srednja to Visoka and back is quite a bit, so I had enough for one day. On the way I met only two young women and at the top two veterans. Pleasant 25°C, sun and a light breeze, a beautiful and strenuous day.

@Trobec according to lidar there are 896 points on the relief with prominence +10 m and above 2000 m above sea level.

If elevation is not a criterion, there are 27587 - that is actually the number of all bumps across Slovenia.

High time I went to sleep.

Ah, I only just noticed this topic that is very dear to me.

Praise to DVas for the website and the effort put in! As you yourself mentioned, there is a problem because there is no definition of what a peak is. If you tell me that, I will tell you how many peaks there are.

Above all, the definition should be unambiguous, that is, completely clear, verifiable and not arbitrary. By far the most commonly used criterion is prominence (height above the saddle). Which value is the right one is a matter of agreement (or personal judgment), but if we take as a criterion a prominence of at least 30 m (probably the minimum) we have 301 two-thousanders in Slovenia (28 in the Karavanks, 37 in KSA, 236 in the Julian Alps). Of course, you can also set a different criterion.

I would also kindly warn you about the input data regarding height. I believe you started from what is publicly available, but there are many errors on public maps (especially on OpenTopo) and they are often quite significant. Sometimes it's simply a measurement error (e.g. Veliki Oltar, which is listed everywhere as 2621 m, but is actually 2628.45 m), sometimes the highest point was not measured, often there are also points that by no criterion are peaks or are not two-thousanders (typically Toplar with 1998.85 m). Some also do not have a peak in Slovenia (e.g. Velika glava on Peca), or the peak is only a meter outside the border (e.g. Ostrv 2103 m, next to Košutnikov turn or Grad 2016 (and not 2008, as on the maps, next to Vrtača) - I counted them anyway).

There are of course also two-thousanders that exist in nature but are not on maps and consequently not on lists - e.g. Point 2040 with prominence 35 m, south of Kalški greben.

If you want completely accurate data, you will have to use Lidar data. These are publicly available through the GURS portal, but you will need some GIS program and a bit of knowledge to use it. Lidar has a standard error of +- 15 cm and is the best we have at the moment (or that even exists).

And no, I don't have a list made. For years I've been saying that I'll do it one day, but I don't get around to it. But so that it doesn't remain just words, below is a graphical representation of the mentioned 301 points (criterion - above 2000 m, above 30 m prominence, in Slovenia + a few m tolerance ).

To avoid even greater confusion - below is an orthophoto with the official local border drawn in. As can be seen, the arrangement at the top is a matter concerning both Municipalities.

And another question - given all the reports of chaos at the pass, is it at least possible to drive across normally on the weekend at a normal time? Not to park, but just to go across?

Due to late arrival, at the beginning I cheat and drive to Planina Zapleč / Zaprikaj. The road is most similar to a quarry, but the panorama up there is gorgeous. First I hop to Debeljak, to which a comfortable mulatjera leads, then on to Krasji vrh, which has quite a few visitors that day. Then along the ridge I go alone. On a nice sunny day, the path is quite visible on most of the trail. Mostly it goes along the ridge itself or a couple of meters below it. There are no special technical difficulties on the ridge itself, but some caution is needed in places. Still, I go quite slowly, and the elevation gain adds up. Snow is only in a few small patches on the north side. After a while, I puff my way to Veliki vrh, which is the end station for today. I enjoy the fantastic views for a while, look at the continuation of the ridge, then turn around and repeat the path in the opposite direction.

The whole path took me about 8 hours gross including stops, if that means anything to someone, they can probably be much faster. By the end of the day, it added up to about 15 km and 1,100 elevation gain.

Idea was to see closer side ridge of Karavanke from Kopišče, over Srednji vrh to White Walls (Beautiful Peak). Project turned more time-consuming than first looked, but probably partly my fault, didn't always hit direction best, result more bushwhacking than probably needed. Well, happens.

Park before hunter hut Železnica, real winter conditions there, while south slopes just lovely sun. But what, I don't go there. Ridge start at Kopišče, leads less visible but nice path, summit trimmed, offers great views. Further along ridge to Srednji vrh I sense path, but not sure.. hunter or animal? When it turns somewhere into three nice directs over rock step I get answer and go my way as I know. Somewhere near top hit trimmed scrub and path again, at Srednji vrh surprised by box with logbook. Maybe not so rarely visited after all? Though entries just one page in two years... Path ahead over whole ridge, but locally quite overgrown and when turns north into snow lost it a few times. A couple spots short detours around rock steps, no tech difficulty, just time-consuming.

Finally arrive at Beautiful Peak (aka White Walls), splendid viewpoint. Since started late and thrashed too long, days short, shortened plan and leave Trupejevo poldne for another time and road march to car and finish.

Plešivec is technically easy summit and if the idea is to stick to the path, orientation at least in good weather shouldn't pose any special problems. But quite some elevation gain accumulates.

I park below at Soča, then up the mulattiera. It really is long (ca 8 km to hunting hut), but very fast and comfortable, so doesn't take too much energy.

From the hut upwards leads a solidly trodden path, on which faded remnants of markings are still locally visible. Somewhere in between the path forks and instead left (Trentski Pelc) I turn sharply right (Plešivec). Where the path loses in grass, numerous cairns help me, so I repair them on the way and add a stone to each.

Views from the top are very nice, but soon it starts to get cold up there, so I turn back quickly and down the same path. On the way I hop to the top of Glava and stroll to planina Berebica (sometimes Verevica or Veverica too), then it's already late enough that it's time to head down.

@Trobec First, apology for the (very) late reply. In the last few weeks I wasn't master of my time, and on the forum the topic quickly sinks into the depths.

The data on MaPZS (are still) not based on Lidar. PZS does have all the data, including Lidar processing, but it hasn't made it to the maps yet because it's not that simple. It will, sooner or later. PlanGIS (internal version of MaPZS) already has Lidar heights and saddles as one of the layers. The difference between MaPZS and individual maps is that they come from different sources, so they differ from each other. Even "official heights" are in places decades old, measured with the technology available at the time, according to the standards then in force. And since in many cases it's hard-to-reach points (not necessarily technically difficult, but more in the sense that it's hard to drag a theodolite through the Alps, not to mention the motivation for such an act ) no one ever felt the need to check them.

Lidar heights often differ from OpenTopo and similar maps. Off the cuff, I'd say only about half of the heights are correct, and another 30% are in the +-1 m range, which let's say is about the same.

Or put differently, every fifth peak has noticeably wrong data on the maps. There are 4 types of errors:

- height doesn't match (mostly by a couple m, but there are cases with dozens of m difference)
- location doesn't match (official peaks often not at the highest point)
- peak exists in nature but not on any map (especially in mid-mountains, i.e. on Snežniška Planota, in Kočevski Rog... full of such cases)
- peak on the map but doesn't exist in reality (viewpoints, ends of ridges, geographical names of some area that actually isn't a peak etc.)

@lijaneja Vrh Nakla is a typical such example. It's a contour line with exactly 2000 m height and only 14 m above saddle and marked as peak on many maps. Lies right by the marked path on Rombon and ascent takes a minute. But somehow it ended up on all lists and since it sounds cooler to conquer e.g. 5 peaks in one trip instead of just one, it persists there.

@Dvas Tell me what a peak is and I'll tell you how many and which ones there are.

Since there's no definition of what a peak is, there's no easy answer to that question. M&M are kings, but when making the list they could only rely on the maps available to them and those had and still have a bunch of errors. Also, just because a contour line is named doesn't mean it's a peak and vice versa - if something on the map has no name, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Recently all of Slovenia was scanned with LIDAR technique with accuracy +- 15 cm, so the data is available today, but it hasn't made it to the maps yet because that process is unfortunately very slow.

If I ever find the time, I might make a complete (coherent and verified) list for the joy of peak collectors or maybe I'll manage to convince PZS to do it together. Until then, just quick info that in the Kanin area there are 7 peaks with prominence (= height above saddle) +100 m (Rombon, Velika Črnelska Špica, Lopa, Prestreljenik, Kanin, Vrh Laške Planje and Velika Baba) or if you lower the limit to prominence 30 m (which is really the minimum so not every boulder is a "peak"), there are about 30 such peaks on the Slovenian side.

Which of course in no way diminishes the pleasure and joy of wandering around Kanin, one of the most beautiful corners of our country. Just that those 5 minutes in which you casually pass Mala and Velika Ušje and Vrh Police might not count exactly as conquering three two-thousanders.