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| Holcar227. 03. 2013 19:03:22 |
So, let me repeat @green's statement:
"I am strongly AGAINST the 2864 ski resort!!!! That would really be TOO BIG an intervention in nature. We have enough other ski resorts around there; we don't need to make new ones. Even the ski resorts we have don't operate because of green winters or lack of finances."
That's it, that's what we've been talking about all the time!
And something else.
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| viharnik27. 03. 2013 19:24:51 |
I also look at the matter for the sake of the people living there and not just for selfish quasi-conviction .
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| tinky28. 03. 2013 08:58:21 |
Karahawk go write little songs, the last one brought tears to my eyes.
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| snork28. 03. 2013 11:26:14 |
yeah it's really interesting to read you....I'm more FOR than against....anyway we'll probably ALL (even those who are now beating on the "Čokls"), test the sharpness of the edges on this ski resort....if it will ever come to life because of the "mess" of Slovenians!!!
Best regards Klemen
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| Holcar228. 03. 2013 15:43:54 |
Thanks, same to you; treatment would come in handy for many, especially you who don't see what a disaster that would be. Anyway, none of our comments would have any influence on what will actually happen.
if no one sees what nonsense building a ski resort starting at 500 meters would be, then I really don't know what's wrong with your heads.
besides, it will also harm people; this ski resort will eat the bread of Vogel, which we all know is already up to its neck in shit.
quoting viharnik: "For me it's completely irrelevant if the 2864 project is done or not, because I will never ski on groomed ski resorts again.."
if it's irrelevant to you, why post in this thread at all?
PPS: thanks tinki, my little songs are really such topics that you have to notice some kinship between them and yourself. no wonder you cry over it. truth hurts!
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| viharnik28. 03. 2013 16:39:11 |
With the 2864 project, Slovenia would get the most modern and only such ski resort in this region, which would only multiply the number of tourists and all, including Vogel, would record a positive connotation. Where in the alpine countries could they succeed only with ski resorts of a few lifts and 15km of ski slopes. Today's tourism requires a complex approach to the offer not only in winter, but also in summer with various sports such as horseback riding, archery, pools, saunas, guided tours, water sports canyoning, rafting, cycling, yoga in nature, culinary specialties of the place with cheesemaking, herbalism, authentic old souvenirs, paragliding, historical sights, connection by train to the coast etc. Thinking only passively and negatively will not bring positive results. In Bohinj there is also the possibility of artificial snowmaking with excellent NW aspect, so you just have to roll up your sleeves and go towards the goal. The project itself requires for prior realization huge logistical and economic efforts and mapping studies and drafts, so hats off to the Čokl family for embarking on such a difficult and demanding challenge. At the same time, a similar example comes to mind of a person who single-handedly carried out the renovation of a high-rise on Topniška in Lj. and gathered all the residents together so that with 800,000€ they renovated an 11-story building. I hope that the Bohinj owners who oppose the construction will think about themselves and realize that with negative attitude and bad relations and ego they only harm themselves and their own country in which they live and on the other hand expect better conditions.
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| Irina28. 03. 2013 17:10:24 |
@viharnik,
I can't fully agree with you. Slovenia is a boutique country and its tourism should be like that too. Little, but select. We can't turn Bohinj into a mass tourism destination, because the environment wouldn't bear it either. And where is all the infrastructure; from roads, water supply, sewage, landfill .... etc., so that it would function as expected.
Bohinj should be a select and not mass destination. The Swiss warned us decades ago not to increase our tourist capacities, but to work on added value.
Don't count on a wealthy guest who doesn't ask about price being willing to drive on a barely decent road, stand in line for a ticket, for the lift, for lunch .... etc. Ride in a herd of Sunday tourists, walk on paths crowded like a market.
Will we sell a kebab to fifty tourists or serve a selected guest lunch/dinner from ingredients from the Bohinj area?
Will Bohinj remain our jewel and become a hen that lays golden eggs or will we get another Kranjska Gora? So let the innovative Čokl tackle a refined project for a limited number of visitors, if he's capable enough.
By the way, what about Vogel? Ah, that's not interesting for the Čokls?
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| Holcar228. 03. 2013 17:11:21 |
Everyone has their own opinion . some arguments that supporters cite cannot be denied, but I remain strictly against this ski resort, not only because of the 30000 cubic meters of felled timber, also because it cannot be denied that this ski resort would create unnecessary crowding for Vogel. Vogel offers besides skiing also many other activities, which is supposed to be at 2864 too.
so imagine a foreigner who doesn't know Slovenia. he arrives in the valley in winter and asks about ski resorts. the closest upon arrival is Soriska Planina, but to get there you need to drive a demanding slope. not an option. the next closest are Kobla and 2864. of these one in trouble. so, come on to the two thousand eight hundred and sixty-four (Slovenians on the net already write that the name is impractical). he doesn't care that at the end of the valley there is another ski resort with better snow conditions and maybe some extra quality (what 2864 will be like, we don't know yet, so I'll refrain a bit). this foreigner will go to the closest and most accessible ski resort for him.
4 ski resorts will be lined up sequentially on 10, 15 kilometers on the same mountain ridge.
already today many tourists come or go on self-organized trips, often it's more reliable that way. about Slovenia in tourist sense a good reputation is spreading around the world, which is strengthening.
when the climate warms even more, one day in not so distant future we will thus have 4 decaying ski resorts lined up. then we will wonder why we built another one back then when one was already in ruins. at the top of the 2864 ski resort the view towards the bottom of the valley will show vast bare areas crisscrossed with rusty iron. there was once a beautiful forest. the eye turns north, to Očak with its ragged disappearing snowfields. even until the end of this January they will disappear and wait until the next "winter" to renew a bit again. and then disappear again. wherever the sad hiker looks, across the whole land he will see white-spotted gray rocks and a bit lower dark patches that were once vast forests.
guys, it's true that this project could have the previously mentioned positive effects. for a while. but you have to look long-term!
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| Holcar228. 03. 2013 17:21:19 |
@Irina: Vogel for Čokle of course can't be interesting, they only care about saving themselves and their hotel. that's obvious to everyone.
that's why they decided on an absurd project that will overburden Bohinj even more, as already written many times. absurd because of the location, which may be pleasant today, but won't be someday. that doesn't worry them, because by then they'll be old. as already written, as well as many more counterarguments to this bullshit, which viharnik and other intellectuals of course don't get and keep pushing theirs (like me )
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| jax28. 03. 2013 18:03:48 |
but we need to look long-term!
Here I can only quote Keynes: in the long run we are all dead.
Yes, we need to look long-term ... up to a point. And looking a couple hundred years into the future is just nonsense.
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| viharnik28. 03. 2013 18:09:55 |
I suggest that both Irina and Krahawk go see foreign alpine destinations and they'll realize that compared to them we practically have nothing to offer guests except pristine nature. Thank God, if everyone was just happy with mountain paradise, but tourists are demanding and of all kinds. Where are e.g. cozy winter cabins for staying in winter, Finnish saunas, artificial climbing walls in case of bad weather, spaces for TV and group gatherings and another hundred things we don't have. Of course the 2864 project must fit into the Bohinjska Bistrica valley in appropriate dimensions according to infrastructure capacity, natural balance of construction density, environmental protection. As I already said we have enough Triglav National Park for pristine offer and that hill up to Soriska planina has no negative connotation for perceiving pristine nature. On the opposite side tourists can head to Uskovnica, Praprotnica, Konjščica, Fužinarske planine or to Voje and enjoy the beautiful mountain landscape. Slovenia is so small that guests returning to central Europe from coastal areas very gladly stop for mountain vacation too, which I've noticed from conversations with foreigners. How many of them after sea rest drive to Nanoska planota to Abram and there cycle and hike, even climb, the same applies to Kranjska gora area, also Zg. Posočje and I see no reason why they wouldn't go from Bled to Bohinj just 25km away.
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| Holcar228. 03. 2013 18:22:25 |
With the saturation of Bohinj tourism, what @Irina wrote could happen: OVERSATURATION. The Bohinj valley is relatively small and can't take such big burdens. We must work on the quality of the existing, not expand it and bet on quantity, because that won't pay off.
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| Holcar228. 03. 2013 18:27:35 |
@jax: would you be of the same opinion if someone a hundred years before you cut down half the forest of the mountain, polluted the groundwater and turned Peči into one big forest of decaying rusty pillars? How would you feel? You'd probably curse those people. Something must remain for our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren and all descendants in general.
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| viharnik28. 03. 2013 18:31:36 |
Sometimes Bohinj was really full, now in summer even the camp in Bohinj can't boast of visits. We are too expensive for what we offer guests and we approach renovation and novelties too little, which foreigners have already realized. Not like Balkans after season just put into pockets, for investing in sustainable development the bears will take care or what?
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| Holcar228. 03. 2013 18:35:22 |
hahaha, how funny  . Did I write that I support the Bohinj way of "touristing"?
Bohinj drives away many tourists with its tolls and parking fees. But we can't just expand the offer, because as said, the valley will become oversaturated. It's small after all. We already have plenty of good ski resorts and no need to build new ones at all.
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| janna28. 03. 2013 18:54:27 |
Karahavk, stop inflating already, don't talk some bullshit off the cuff. But how do you participate in the 2864 project? No, obviously! That means all your yapping is just shit into the void.
What do you know about Bohinj becoming oversaturated? Stop it, when you have no "official basis". You talk bullshit.
I "collect" a lot of ski days every winter season, meaning I know the state of Slovenian ski resorts quite well. So that sentence of yours: we already have plenty of good ski resorts - I really don't know what you meant by that ...
This Slovenian backwardness ... I don't know where it will lead us . If Čokle (and other Bohinj people) manage to pull off this project ... hats off!
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| jax28. 03. 2013 18:56:28 |
@karahawk
Read the book A World Without Us. If someone did that a hundred years before us and then no one touched it anymore, it would be barely noticeable. Nature can absorb a fucking lot.
But I don't claim that we don't need to look at nature. I think Čokla despite all reservations about their financial situation still have the right concept. In short development and progress, but taking nature into account. Here some of you advocate the concept of a reserve where no development should be allowed at all.
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| CarpeDiem24728. 03. 2013 19:13:55 |
Eh, reading this I get into a really bad mood, since I see that us Janezki are a special sort of Earthlings, we don't want change, nor progress, we'd most gladly return to the Stone Age. Nothing at all and with such thinking tomorrow's lunch will happen with a wooden spoon, sadly.
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| Irina28. 03. 2013 20:07:19 |
@viharnik,
you wrote in your last comment that from the camp onwards everything is "miserable". But the camp won't be any more "noble" or fuller if the 2864 ski center is built.
Let's add value to what's already there. Don't push new investments when we haven't managed to complete and finish the old ones.
Why a ski center with increasingly modest winters, why not a cycling or cross-country center? Let's market what's already there and not turn everything into concrete and asphalt.
Look, in winter I drive past Kranjska Gora to St. Višarje with regret. They haven't concreted anything, made small changes, and have plenty of visitors in summer and winter.
The aware tourist values pristine nature, comes from concrete and doesn't want to go to concrete.
Some were enthusiastic a while ago about a cable car that would take tourists from Vrata to Kredarica. And opponents of that project were labeled backward too, hindering development. Triglav promenade with a cable car would already be a dump today.
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| viharnik28. 03. 2013 20:36:55 |
It seems you really don't understand my clear messages and unnecessarily twist words. With the camp model I wanted to say that in general we don't have good management from politicians onwards, of course there are also very successful companies behind which good managers stand, so no need to throw everything in the same basket. Generally, it hasn't entered our blood yet to evenly distribute earned money to future development and company management, as they are used to in Germany. There the financial police works well too, so taxes fairly flow into the state treasury. How can it happen to a company that owns several rich companies and complains that it doesn't have money for basic repairs. That means cheating the state and taxpayers and portraying oneself in a non-serious position. No wonder we then see seaside palaces of 2000m2 on TV, which even foreign much more stable companies couldn't afford. Just recently a neighbor from Triglav insurance told me that abroad a strong private individual employing a few 100 employees can't and doesn't dare just buy a car worth 50,000€. Here one opens a company, then again at the state's expense as entitled to a company car with discount, goes straight for prestige purchase. A German, even if rich nowadays, watches every € and at the end of the month has complete records of his expenses, but money never runs out at month end. They also buy cars sensibly according to their use and not for prestige, as is customary here. That means someone won't get a caravan version if he doesn't need it himself, or even a prestige SUV if he's not a very eminent state personality and won't drive on hills. In conversation with a border resident I realized they are completely beyond ego and pomp with material things, far ahead of us. And they don't compete in that either. Good work done, well-being, solidity, independence and earned vacations matter more to them, for which they allocate from salary every month.
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