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Bohinj 2864

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keber15. 04. 2013 23:02:00
Just this much: you can't live off nature if you don't use it properly. Slovenia needs new investments like this one to survive. We're already by far the most overgrown non-Scandinavian country, a few fewer hectares of forest won't be a big intervention in nature.
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Holcar25. 04. 2013 23:15:28
if you want to cut, keber, go to the forest and cut there in one day, if you care so much about it.
30000 and more cubic meters-that's nothing at all.


60% of Slovenian forests should be our pride.zmeden
forests are there to be, not just for felling.
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keber16. 04. 2013 00:12:05
And what should we do with these forests if we can't touch them? So let's preserve nature, but we can only look at it from the road or what?

Otherwise, you're right, 30,000 cubic meters is nothing. In Slovenia, the annual wood growth is almost 300x larger, i.e. around 8.5 million cubic meters. We don't cut even half of that, which means there's really no need to worry about the future overgrowth of Slovenia due to 0.3% additional cut of the Slovenian annual growth.
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jax6. 04. 2013 02:25:01
I think a few pages back the sailor already hit the point: actually, the idea that in Slovenia we could market some "untouched" or "unspoiled" nature in tourism is completely the same delusion as the one from Croatia that there they could market only sea and sun. No, every tourism, no matter how nature-friendly, requires interventions. And in the end, it's all just in the right measure, as the ancient Greeks knew how to say ...
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viharnik6. 04. 2013 09:58:18
Everything will work if something new is offered on the market with pools, saunas, typical wooden huts, good food, organized excursion guiding etc. With this 2864 project, one could employ economists, dipl. hospitality workers and service technicians, hairdressers, physiotherapists, mountain guides, water sports guides, naturalist botanists, gliding and paragliding instructors, MTB cycling guides and specialists, hunting, archery, equestrian, caving, Pokljuka moorland, church and castle history, authentic cuisine and Bohinj cheese-making customs, winter touring skiing, cross-country skiing and ice climbing, fishing. All this Bohinj with surroundings can offer if it goes to the market with common interests and organization and perfectionism.
Just in Bad Kleinkirchheim in Austrian Carinthia it's recorded full of guests, where they offer only ski slopes and famous pools and lots of log cabins for rent. Nature itself offers us everything, but I think we've just dozed off a bit in our own tourist and economic development. Therefore the saying holds: Opportunity missed, none returns.
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capraibex6. 04. 2013 11:18:33
I agree with viharnik. We'll just have to look to the Austrians, how the local and wider community lives for the cause there. Not that we'll watch failed ski resorts for years and years. Our problems start at the start of every project, where everyone would already steal and have personal benefits.
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CarpeDiem2476. 04. 2013 11:42:39
@Viharnik - I endorse your post too. nasmeh
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VanSims6. 04. 2013 11:50:13
Let's use nature sensibly.

Do you know why Italians, Austrians and others come to us? They are exactly that minority who loves untouched nature. And for them Slovenia is paradise. Those mass tourists are of course satisfied at home.

I have nothing against new projects. But why not encourage small businesses? That can help us out of the crisis. Our future doesn't depend on a few huge projects but on private initiative of enterprising individuals. And those need to be helped. If the horse you've bet everything on weakens, you lose everything, but if one of the small projects fails, it's not such a tragedy.

How praiseworthy Austrian environmental protection is can be seen from their attitude to forests. Such logging can be seen all over Carinthia, from roads, from hiking trails, from peaks,...

1
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keber16. 04. 2013 12:33:16
Small businesses won't save us from the crisis, only the poorest countries do that, because they don't know, can't or don't have resources for anything bigger. And even for small businesses you have to offer something, which isn't just a viewpoint from the valley.
I'm not saying we need to build French-style ski resorts, but protecting every little bush as if it's holy, while we have way too many of them (and at every moment 10% of Slovenia is overgrowing), is nonsense. And precisely because we have to protect every molehill and every grass patch here, nothing happens that would move Slovenia from the path to economic collapse. You can't live off tourism in a way that a couple of people come to see the sights, if at all, straight from Brnik airport.

Maybe this data: with the planned ski resort they'll cut less wood than the annual wood increment on Jelovica.
Yeah, negligible.
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lubadar6. 04. 2013 12:47:25
I live not far from Bohinj and I also know Bohinj people.
When someone comes from elsewhere there's no problem getting all the necessary consents, but a local can't even think of a 5 cm larger window in an old house, because it would spoil the image of Bohinj. As far as I know, the investor isn't using his own money, so even if the project fails, it will fall on the lenders, and then we know where...
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VanSims6. 04. 2013 17:26:15
@keber1:

Don't tell what you wrote in the first paragraph to any serious economist...

Precisely the richest countries in Europe are based on small businesses of private initiative. Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands,... They also have big companies and projects but not so much that the economy depends on them to a large extent. And precisely poor countries rely only on big projects (typically e.g. socialist or most post-socialist countries)

In this sense Belgium is a very instructive example. In the 19th century and up to WWII Wallonia was richer. The economy was driven by huge heavy-industrial complexes, mining, coal mining,... i.e. BIG projects. They contemptuously looked at the Flemings (who were half as industrially developed) as those poor lowland farmers. Well, after WWII it turned around. The industrial revolution lost its wings, post-industrial society began. Heavy industry, coal,... increasingly lost sense in favor of more ecological sources, services, tourism,... The Flemings, who weren't so burdened by the legacy of industry, quickly seized the opportunity and precisely with small businesses of private initiative exploited the golden 50s and 60s and then overtook the rigid Wallonia, which bet everything on big cumbersome projects that failed one after another in post-industrial society. That's why they couldn't redirect as quickly as the Flemings, who basically started from scratch. Today we know Flanders is much richer than Wallonia, which only started recovering some 10-15 years ago.

And why talk about Belgium, we have an equivalent example at home but on a much smaller scale: Zasavje mining areas, once the pride of the economy today collapse with a bunch of unemployed. And across Europe: Ruhr area (Germans have partially managed to rehabilitate it again with small projects, even doing tourism offering visits to closed factories, mines, industrial museums,...), French regions Nord and Lorraine, English Midlands,...

And what would save Zasavje today? Exactly that: promoting small businesses, private initiative, services, tourism,... Same Velenje and Šoštanj. Ours are doing some TEŠ. God help, instead of investing that in faster construction of power plants on Sava.

But I agree with the second paragraph: protect this, that,... you have to get I don't know how many papers and environmental and spatial permits,... Yeah, that's exactly what deters small entrepreneurs and also foreign investors.

But it's interesting how this Bohinj 2864 project got all the necessary permits so quickly. It just started being talked about. Someone above said the only problem left is with two owners (by the way, when they build something important in Austria, they first expropriate all owners in that area(!), so construction can start immediately and then negotiate compensation in courts).

Interesting that here they immediately took care of all the papers, but one small private guy can *f* around 5-10 years with bureaucracy and still question if he'll succeed.
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jax6. 04. 2013 18:44:30
vansims:

You're not entirely right. Small businesses are actually characteristic mainly of poor countries, especially Asian and African. There really are no larger economic systems at all, and all the economy these countries know is by default small - from phone rentals, shoe cleaning, subsistence farming etc. But there's no capital to enable investments in higher productivity and jobs.
Now - what about Germany and Austria, often mentioned as countries based on small businesses - that's a small optical illusion. In reality, it's that these countries (also Switzerland, Netherlands and others) have damn well developed large economic systems. And they can produce a larger part of GDP in small businesses precisely because they have solid and well-managed large systems into which small companies can integrate as subcontractors. But if you think of doing small businesses without large systems, you really get bazaar economy. And that's the direction some advocate in Slovenian economic policy, I think it's completely wrong position. And if we assume that our small companies must integrate as subcontractors into systems on the global market, then we indirectly admit that we'll always be some inferior colony of the developed West.
And regarding Wallonia and other classic industrial areas: your analysis is basically correct, but the main reason why they are still mainly depressive regions with high unemployment and population emigration is simpler: it's simply that these regions, as a result of the boom of heavy industry, have way too much population. The consequence is clear - of course there is gradual redirection of the economy and at least limited recovery. But this recovery never brings them to the same standard they had before. Simply because small businesses can never offer as many jobs as heavy industry could. Therefore, in such regions recovery happens gradually, but they remain socially fragile regions with high unemployment and depressive social climate. And that's largely a matter of simple mathematics - there are simply too many people for any economic base. And that's what all old industrial regions are now - Wallonia, northern England, Ruhr, if you want Zasavje. Growth can happen, but real boom won't. And it can never happen again, unless one of two things happens: either enough people emigrate from the region so that the pressure on the economic base is no longer so high, or a new industrial revolution comes.
That's why I'm very reserved about beating on large economic systems and advocating small businesses. Large systems are the foundation and although in developed countries there are indeed more employed in small companies, those companies can exist precisely because of the large ones.
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Holcar26. 04. 2013 18:49:39
it's about what kind of small business it is.
in Slovenia you won't find shoe shiners etc., if at all, you'd have to search with a magnifying glass. I'm sure vansims didn't mean that.
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VanSims6. 04. 2013 21:51:19
@jax:

You're right, without larger systems it doesn't work. Areas that are still underdeveloped of course don't have such systems. Those that are developing (China, India, South America,...) are developing precisely on their basis. Up to here all nice and right. But Western society is already developed. Western society developed on large systems of the industrial revolution. That works to some extent to get that base and then sooner or later something else must happen otherwise the 'Walloon scenario' is inevitable. You can't live only off big projects. They give the base and already while you're riding the conjuncture they provide you must think about what comes after they run out. Nothing is eternal.

It happened to Walloons precisely because they were one-sidedly oriented on one hand and fell asleep on those projects on the other. They didn't invest the money they brought into other sectors, other projects, diversity of the economy, which also means dispersing capital in the sense that not everything is concentrated in a few big things from which everything depends.

This can happen e.g. also to Arabs. Now they live nicely off oil. Wealth is concentrated in the hands of a handful of sheikhs and oil tycoons. What then? When it runs out? Or if by chance (despite mighty oil lobby) we develop alternative energy before? If they don't direct oil profits forward into other projects, other people, finer, more flexible economy, when the oil era ends they'll go back to camels and tents, if I exaggerate a bit. mežikanje

Slovenia is fairly developed already. We also need big development projects. If this Bohinj 2864 is one of them I have nothing against it. But we must think about what then? Otherwise the 'Walloon scenario' can happen to us, which has actually already started in this crisis but it's not too late yet.

We too were too oriented, so to speak, to big projects. One of them was e.g. export to rich western markets and Balkans. And almost nowhere else. And now when those markets are in crisis it hurt us too. Now we've just started redirecting to growing markets of Asia and S. America. But slowly. We should have earlier. That's an example of what I said, that already when big projects bring money you must think about finer ones, in our case diversification of export (and investing its profit elsewhere) and that happens if there are more companies trading to different markets i.e. finer economy.
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viharnik7. 04. 2013 07:50:30
The difference between us and Easterners is that there they can produce final products with cheap labor, because the people themselves are used to hard work for little money. We never developed and adopted such work habits in history, let alone working daily for a handful of rice. So world production spread first to China, now already going to India and other nearby countries, then business will slowly come to Africa. For us the show horse remains only knowledge and projects and production of quality special products that sell around the world. We as a European nation will never match Eastern companies in producing final products, because we simply didn't develop in history to create benefit in hard conditions and we didn't need to. We lived as a modern knowledge society and human values with a completely different daily pace in life. We can only compete in the world economy with development knowledge and some final products that the East can't yet produce. I still much prefer to reach for quality European products rather than slightly cheaper junk but also less quality that comes from the East. They copy everything en masse there, even solar collectors (photovoltaics), but those most powerful modules with the highest surface efficiency in solar irradiation they still don't know how to make, here Germans and Canadians lead.
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Holcar28. 04. 2013 17:24:32
@viharnik: you're partly right when you claim that Slovenes never had work habits. If they don't have them today (and of course you can't talk about all, maybe about the majority) it doesn't mean it was always like that. In the past the conditions of Slovenes were quite similar to those mentioned in third world countries. Also Slovenes were plagued by severe poverty multiple times in history (it's still like that somewhere today, but the share is smaller) and they worked very hard for very little pay. An example is the time of peasant revolts and the associated tlake, and more could be found.
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zmaja0076. 05. 2014 14:36:28
It's a fact that in the matter of the 2864 Bohinj ski resort three criminal complaints have been filed for abuse of office under Article 258 of KZ-1, against two state undersecretaries and one lawyer, that one of the PP is handling written threats, that the sister company MPM Engineering of future builder Boštjan Čokl has 16 million minus, that the project company MARBO has 17 million minus, that they expect to cheat the state for at least 25 million €, that they want to expropriate owners Bogataj and Tičar (property value 600,000.00 €, offering them 2,800.00€), that there is grounded suspicion that the environmental permit for the ski resort is forged, that half of the current government is involved, that no print media except DELO dared to publish the Open Letter to the Prime Minister on April 19, 2014, that since April 3, 2014 there is no more article about Bohinj 2864 ski resort in any media, that mayor Kramar was once director of hotel at Čokl, that until now no representative of the LEITNER company, which will build, has been met at any meeting, and it invested a pure 1,920 € in the project (per notary record), that the EKO hotel in Bohinj was built from donated 4 million € ten years ago, that in ten years it made over 600,000.00€ turnover and that MPM Engineering has had its account blocked for 515 days today. This will be the third big project in Slovenia, after Stožice and Maribor traffic lights. Regarding cable cars in Slovenia - follow media and read about their success. Except one or two - all on the ground. Kanin would be solved with 500,000.00€, the only suitable high-mountain ski resort - there was no hero for it. One more: all media were informed about what's written, call Gorenjski glas, also Radio Triglav, also Bled mayor etc. Have a nice day!
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viharnik6. 05. 2014 17:47:42
Moths always stick to lights, same in the figurative sense with people on big projects. Especially that applies to Slovenia, when the background is still rotten and corrupt and operates on old foundations. There are no legal entities dealing with economic-political irregularities or they have no interest in intervening or it's even limited by higher instances, since it probably suits them better for their own profit.
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peter29. 05. 2014 20:05:53
Zmaja007, interesting.
Given that we read about the tenting on the top of Rjavina, which Mr. Čokl came up with, almost even in the New York Times, it would be interesting to read some response from him to these facts.
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viharnik9. 05. 2014 20:43:11
The fact is, as the co-commentator nicely described on this topic on the Gore-ljudje portal, that everything is overstrained here and not in balance with normal human values and living as known in other Alpine countries. As I learned from a colleague, TNP supposedly gets seven million in non-refundable funds annually from European funds for park development. There are around 35 people employed there. Where all that money goes, only God knows. On top of that, they are in the red. Probably we are generally still a too young country with too little experience to resist such wild tycoon capitalism, as well as to follow a state-political reconciliatory stance.
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