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Bohinj 2864

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Becar3. 04. 2013 12:42:12
And one more thought that fits in... maybe the initial investment in the project will be covered by the money that Bohinj "wardens" collected from those who parked in the areas of the mentioned municipality, where there isn't even one sign prohibiting parking or driving.

And so others know before going to Bohinj, read the Official Gazette of RS, because it supposedly says where you can and cannot park (that's the explanation from the wardens).

And also:
Dear foreign tourists. I strongly recommend you to read Uradni list RS before you come to Bohinj and park your car. If you don't understand slovene, translation of Uradni list is highly recommended.
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tol3. 04. 2013 12:51:12
Environmentalists are BASTARDS!
They actually managed to delay the construction of a wind turbine for electricity production indefinitely.
And all because of birds??? Hello?
And today: Still it turns!

What are environmentalists?

1. extended arm of some lobbies (oil, traffic,...)?
2. actually a group of people/individuals who with their knowledge (which is quite specific) advocate our interests that we are not aware of?

We are a very narrow-minded society that is not even aware of its "advantages". Today we want to roll, swim and sleep in money, tomorrow we want pristine nature accessible in a good 10-minute drive by car/chairlift/...


You know, tourism can be played long-term too. Austrians have full mountains "built up", road takes you above 2000m, you can shower above 2000 meters,...

OK OK...nice if you can bathe like a gentleman. OK, nice if someone lives well from it...but how long?

We can look strategically, ban all interventions in nature and in 30 years we will be an excellent destination where you can still see a live bird or even a blue tit in the natural environment! You can drink water straight from the stream that has its source deep in the mountains.
Tourists will swarm in millions.

Hotel Bohinj/Čokla/Ski resort 2864....
Unfortunately (don't take it personally) with the project I got the thought that someone just wants to save their ass....fuck it, that's how it is today and I'm involved in similar stories myself.
Above all, stories matter and how you present that story, not what actually stands behind it.
Čokla is supposed to have already fucked something up...well half of Slovenia has already fucked something up...and what now? stop working/thinking/...?

You know a few years ago I rode the modern chairlift to Stari vrh. Legends. Some ski resort under Blegoš can afford a heated 6-seater? Are you crazy? Let the leaders from Velika planina company come see this wonder! Let me add that there we still ride the "used" SOCIALIST DOUBLE CHAIRLIFT....
But look...Stari vrh barely saved its skin this year, and it wasn't far from closing everything.
On Velika planina they still run some old junk today...so what? Nothing beats night sledding on Velika planina!

You know about ski resort 2864, first the locals, environmentalists and other experts should clarify. Is the project sustainable or not?
Intervention in nature is an intervention. And it's not just intervention in nature, but above all in the daily life of locals. If someone tricked them, they will bear the consequences themselves.

This forum arguing gets on my nerves too. What is wrong with you?

If someone thinks differently than you, no need to fight. Respecting each other doesn't mean you agree on everything. It's about accepting a different opinion and going to the mountains.

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bats3. 04. 2013 13:28:50
@tol
yes it's true that Vel. planina still has the old chairlift, call it socialist if you want, and St. vrh also has a modern capitalist one. Both OK. And since I know a bit more about St. vrh, I follow the completely misguided public debates or accusations against STC. Yes, St. vrh really secured the season, the company regularly meets obligations and makes profit every year from operations despite regular payments to everyone, including Hypo bank. The mess was brewed by capitalist greed of bankers and unintentionally everyone would have pushed in a company that "supposedly calculated" it. Big + for the people working there to keep St. vrh alive and modernizing it. Complete counter-example is Vel. planina and Kobla (big -), which have been in deep winter sleep for at least 20 years. Incidentally, no major interventions in forests or nature for the modernization at Stari vrh.
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GregorC3. 04. 2013 13:40:19
Here you say that Čokl saves the hotel and water park with the ski resort. The point is that it was planned from the beginning and done in stages. First water park, then hotel and finally ski resort. This is a complete package.
As for Vogel and especially Kobla, I don't know why he should renovate it. Let the owners take care of it. And by the way, the hotel on Vogel has a new owner since last year and operated this winter too. Admittedly quite rundown and with problems. For its renovation, almost more bureaucracy and environmental permits are needed than the financial investment itself.
When we look at the bigger picture here, it will be much better. You mention mainly Čokl's benefit and no one else's. Such thinking I don't know if it's possible anywhere else but here. This is actually an opportunity for the entire Bohinj area. It will bring guests and many individuals can benefit (apartments, catering,...). And as far as I know, locals mostly support the project.
Otherwise, I don't know if there's any sense in talking anymore, because everyone will stick to their guns anyway.
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lynx3. 04. 2013 15:23:40
Just so there's no mistake, Bohinj locals don't have a uniform opinion on the project either — the world isn't green-gray.
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Becar3. 04. 2013 15:57:28
Is this the Čokl who has on FB written:
Mountaineer, mountaineering instructor, skier, speedflyer, paraglider, diver, amateur photographer, cameraman and director, blogger? And director?

If yes, then I don't know how that's compatible, because as far as I know good and successful directors are 16 hours a day at their companies. On their profiles they post mainly achievements within the company.
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BorisM3. 04. 2013 16:50:39
That's his son.
Does it hurt less now?cool

And even if it were him, he does it with his own money, if he has the chance to pull off such a big investment you can only take your hat off that he dares in these times.
Money is supposedly secured, construction no problem either, as it looks only two landowners are the issue.
But he needs to turn his pants inside out so you can see if the color is right.
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Becar3. 04. 2013 17:22:14
Given our experiences with our excellent tycoons, local sheriffs, entrepreneurs who serially destroyed project after project, company after company and brought the country to where it is, unfortunately for such extensive projects one would really need to turn someone's pants inside out beforehand, as you put it. Especially in case of any state aid, subsidies etc. Are you sure the project won't be partially financed with our taxpayer money? Are you sure the funds will really be used for the purpose?

Anyway, it won't hurt me either way. If the decision isn't right, it will probably hurt everyone a little.
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Mrki3. 04. 2013 18:30:44
Regarding the project, I'm not deciding for or against it. The low altitude is a fact and it has no good prospects in that regard. What bothers me more is that the investor MPE Engineering - Čokla, father and son, are mainly promoting themselves, arbitrarily setting dates for the ski resort opening without having a precisely defined project and referring to problems supposedly caused by Bohinj locals. If we just look at individual documents - articles published in the last three years, they always announced that construction start is just around the corner, only missing consent from this or that, but actually they didn't have many things sorted out. Even the published graphics of cable car routes and ski areas change and get adjusted on the fly without much explanation. They publish data on cable cars from Bohinjska Bistrica to Ravne and further to Slatnik (probably somewhere near Možic) and from Planina za Malim vrhom to Možic(?) and towards Soriska planina, according to some sketches also from Ravne to the top of Kobla ski resort. If the investor clearly told the public what he plans - especially regarding the Ravne-Kobla cable car, there would be much less debate about the relationship between the current Kobla ski resort and the new one. Also the project name Bohinj 2864 is in my opinion completely inappropriate. But that's Mr. Čokla's thing.
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jedriličar3. 04. 2013 18:52:56
It's really interesting to follow this discussion, as if I'm reading some HR forum, we're the same ... anti-pro ... I thought you were smarter than us Croats, but I was wrong ...
Like with us, as soon as someone tries to do something, everyone jumps up, greens, yellows, unions, unemployed, retirees, students, and ....
The best argument with us is: we don't want some dirty capitalist to make money off us ... or we just want to live well, our salaries, huts, little houses and whatever else ...
I was there recently, early March in Bohinj for a few days skiing, after almost 30 years. Nothing has changed, Bohinj is deserted and empty, Kobla doesn't work, and on Vogel they've built 2 new cable cars with letters and numbers. In one word, the valley is totally neglected, and when we add that Bledski Zatrnik has been closed for a long time, I guess it's clear to everyone. And then someone appears who would revitalize it a bit, renovate Kobla, make new lifts, some new facilities, and the thing falls on a few owners of a few hundred or thousand square meters of forest. We have similar at home, say golf Dubrovnik, or golf in Istria etc. Do you really think tourism can develop on sun and sea (in HR) or snow and sun and nature (SLO)? Indicator of how profitable it is, say summer tourism in SLO mountains compared to the same in Dolomites. Do you think Dolomites would be full if there weren't about 500 lifts taking you to almost every bigger hill without effort ... plus pools in the valley, various other facilities, that's what tourists want and will pay for ... so if Bohinj wants to return to pre-war tourist numbers, I think no doubt, it needs to build one modern slightly larger ski resort ... we'll still have enough mountains where ordinary tourists can't access...
That's it, best regards from Pula
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Becar3. 04. 2013 20:03:04
What if for a change we asked why there are no tourists and analyzed past mistakes. Namely, I'm convinced that with the attitude of the wardens ruling in those areas, they only repel tourists. I'm convinced that about 15 cars (among them Dutch, Swiss), which we were unjustly fined a few years ago, will never return to Bohinj. I've heard many similar stories from other people.

That way it would be cheaper to start by putting up appropriate traffic signs with driving and parking bans, and send the wardens to training on good manners towards tourists, on the foolishness of normative ticket writing, and on the topic whether it's better to rip off a tourist for 40 EUR so he never comes back, or rather do something about notification, information etc.

Secondly, we also need to look at the current poverty of people in Slovenia who don't even have money for food, and I doubt the new ski resort will change anything for such people. It won't survive on foreigners alone, because they have plenty of their own - very quality ski resorts.
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Holcar23. 04. 2013 20:11:19
It seems most of you think that opponents of the project oppose because of opposing Čoklas or some envy.zmeden
let me clarify: I don't care at all who runs this project. It could be Helena Blagne for all I care. What matters to me is the intervention in nature that this project would cause, which I've been warning about for a long time, but no one takes it. Those few kilometers outside TNP don't count much, it's still nature and right next to the park. I won't repeat for the hundredth time warnings about climate change, too low altitude etc. By the way: I know it won't just be a ski resort, but what happens will happen. Even if only part of the whole project. It's also about 30,000 cubic meters of cut forest, even more. You know that of course. Need to look beyond that bit of financial inflow and see differently. How, I've already said: long-term. And now you'll troll me again. Whatever. I don't care. I think my own. Just remember my words when you're old and it all rots away.
as already said...

ps: that about saturation, which you've already torn apart: if 4 ski resorts in 15 km aren't oversaturation, then I really don't know what is for you.
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Becar3. 04. 2013 20:22:02
Day by day factories employing 100, 200, 500, 1000 people are collapsing. People have no money for food, the country is totally indebted, on the edge of financial collapse... We're lagging behind Czechs, Slovaks, but we'll have the most modern ski resort nasmeh Name one country where industry collapsed, living standard is nil, but has highly developed ski tourism. For God's sake people, where do you live (some). We're not Croats saved by the Adriatic. Don't compare their sea and our ski resorts.

This project is already doomed to a big financial MINUS.
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Holcar23. 04. 2013 20:25:35
I completely agree, Becar. Such things have already been pointed out in the thread but of course some are too elevated to perceive it.
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viharnik3. 04. 2013 20:34:14
Slovenian tourism works very well if you have something to offer the customer at good, lower price than abroad. So our thermal baths with hotels are completely full of foreigners. Pension in Lendava thermae costs 45€ with accommodation and bath, food so much that older people just admire it because they can't eat that much, everything you want. The same should be done in winter tourism with good offer and attractive prices and work on service quality with low price and lots of guests. But I agree that salted parking here repels someone a priori and deters from staying. For comparison Lake Balaton (Fakker see) with island similar to Bled, all-day parking 2.5€, here 7 or 8€, nice ambience, host friendliness, lower drink prices. Times are no longer rosy and even rich foreigners will think well financially where to go for short break or vacation.
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Holcar23. 04. 2013 20:36:29
Bohinj wardens drive away many guests this way, who tell it further to their friends, acquaintances.... and they further.
Some don't even realize how strong this word of mouth is abroad.
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jedriličar3. 04. 2013 20:42:45
@MajaO: one thing has changed, at Rožič you can't get šmarna anymore .... and that says something too, doesn't it ?
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Holcar23. 04. 2013 20:45:05
as I said, several things in Bohinj drive away tourists.
I don't know, Maja, how your post contradicts minezmeden
of course I know not all are the same, after someone experiences trolling on one side and complete opposite on the other, practiced on this forum, no one can claim that anymore.
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korl4. 04. 2013 07:39:39
hey Karahawk, since it already says in your profile that you're such a proud Pohorc - why does the development of tourism in Bohinj hurt you so devilishly???

What have you contributed to preserving untouched nature at your home? The entire Pohorje is already crisscrossed with ski slopes and new clearings, quad bikes, snowmobiles, motocross bikes are racing around it... even foreigners, forest tracks and uncontrolled cuttings are being made, Pohorje wood is transported exclusively to foreign buyers. There isn't a single mountain hut to which a wide asphalt road doesn't lead and where there are no parked cars.
But such lungs of Slovenia as they taught us in school, plain shame! But we'll market ours, yours we'll preserve together with your poverty or what, that's the message to Bohinj residents? How can you even flaunt to others about envy?
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VanSims4. 04. 2013 10:02:23
@Korl:

I've been to Pohorje a few times and what I experienced there is the exact opposite of Bohinj misery.

They were among the first to have nicely arranged paths at the end of the nineties, marked, fairly developed infrastructure and that at a time when e.g. the whole Gorenjska (including Bled and Bohinj) was still firmly sleeping or struggling with denationalization, land disputes and similar things.

I don't remember experiencing any unfriendliness in Pohorje, people are fine, friendly, smiling. Service OK, no cheating, mistreatment,...

Where you see crisscrossed ski slopes I don't know? There's only one and one gondola. Also the rest (hotels, huts, roads,...) is just the right optimum of infrastructure so it's more or less arranged and tourist-friendly and far from aggressive mass tourism a la Switzerland and Dolomites.

I didn't notice any quad bikes, motorbikes, I won't say there aren't any - they are a plague of our whole little country and the culprits aren't individual tourist centers but the state and authorities that tolerate them in such environments. Also I think it's unlikely they were locals, especially very likely some foreigners especially since we know how Swiss race through our forests with their off-roaders because the fine is only a few 10 EUR, which for them is like a EUR or two falling out of my pocket.

Also as far as I know they don't force with various parking fees and other unavoidable costs and of course they don't dare to deliberately fill the municipal cash register with non-informing and then slapping fines like they do in mafia style in Bohinj.

Hats off to Pohorje people, Bohinj residents could learn a looot from them.
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