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| Janez Seliškar3. 08. 2015 13:50:41 |
"Zebdi", we're talking about Mangart and paths leading to its summit. On them it's exactly as I wrote previously. So, both parts of safety equipment are mandatory for those who care about themselves!
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| Zebdi3. 08. 2015 14:39:19 |
Janez, even if it's just about Mangart, I still don't think SVK is mandatory - especially not on the Italian path, where those slabs really aren't difficult. I don't mind using SVK, far from it. I'm more interested in another phenomenon: lately the mantra "SVK is mandatory, SVK is mandatory..." is repeated endlessly, but no one ever writes about proper physical fitness, checking the weather forecast, choosing a tour suitable for experience.
http://www.gore-ljudje.net/informacije/119973/
Here's the first bulletin that came to hand. Maybe not the most representative, but it seems to me that similar causes of accidents are repeated in the media: exhaustion, health problems, ankle breaks, slips, orientation problems, etc.
I've written several times that it would be interesting to find out what percentage of (fatal) accidents could be prevented by using SVK, but I think (very possible I'm wrong, so don't hold me to it), it was even said once that GRZS doesn't keep such records. But as far as I follow the reports, few accidents happen on secured sections...
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| jax3. 08. 2015 14:40:30 |
ŠpRo29
3.8.2015 http://www.gore-ljudje.net/novosti/8890/
Otherwise a bit older article.
Of course it's superfluous to add that the tragedies of two alpinist teams are not relevant to the debate on the via ferrata set...
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| ŠpRo293. 08. 2015 14:54:22 |
I completely agree with you, JAX.
But the article mentions causes of accidents (hypothermia), so I did a little searching because I was curious 
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| KUKI773. 08. 2015 15:10:54 |
Comparing Rjavina or Dolgi hrbet with Slovenska on Mangart is like day and night, inappropriate. The fact is that the airiness of the path is least rated, which for beginners is the decisive factor. And here SVK helps, similar to rest or calming down, it can save you from a falling pebble (unconsciousness), but it can also be a complicating factor (Redbull). The Slovenska path is harder (comparable) due to humidity, slipperiness, lack of protection and falling rocks than the mentioned ones, and at the beginning it's also airy.
I remember more the accident from years ago that happened on the most airy initial part..
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| Domch3. 08. 2015 15:14:55 |
It's also a fact that Mangart is greatly underestimated. Probably also because you can drive almost directly under its wall by car. Everyone thinks those two hours up I'll manage. For example, on Škrlatica I see people with SMV, and there are considerably fewer protections than on Mangart. It's also a fact that a helmet and SMV won't save you if you don't have and don't check the other things, as Zebdi mentions above.
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| Keko3. 08. 2015 17:22:53 |
A good example is Prisank. It has one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult secured path in our mountains, Kopiščarjeva path. On the other hand, there's also the much easier Slovenska or Southern path leading to it.
As far as I know, more people died on Slovenska or Southern path than on Kopiščarjeva. Even looking back a few years when self-belay kits weren't used yet, Slovenska claimed more victims. In my opinion, the harder sections secured with cable are incomparably safer, whether using a belay kit or not, than scree terrain like the Slovenska on Prisank.
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| dprapr3. 08. 2015 17:52:38 |
It's hard to convince someone of the usefulness of using SVK on ordinary secured paths if they've hiked without it for 45 years before.
And on worse secured paths than now, to be clear. Back then the cables were less tensioned or only pitons were installed. We always warned each other, watch out that the cable doesn't squeeze you when someone above or below tensioned it. That was the biggest danger on those paths. Now the cables are tensioned, all sections are secured... and dangerous are mainly crowded or snowy sections without cables. We should talk about that and warn about such paths that contain such sections. And about sections that are not secured at all, like e.g. on Hanzova (Prisank), Mrzla gora,... Where there are cables, we have something to grab anyway. But if it's via ferratas with overhanging and vertical sections, then SVK is of course necessary.
Here I understand only those who do guiding and want to ensure the safety of tour participants to the maximum. They will definitely advocate using SVK, even though they don't use it otherwise.
And the debate started mainly because Igor pointed out the difficulty of the path and its underestimation. He didn't mention SVK!
If something bothers me, it's this aggressiveness of those who use this thing and force it on everyone else, here and in the mountains. Soon I won't dare go on marked paths anymore because I don't want to buy SVK. I've also been subject to criticism and dirty looks from SVK users. They can wear two for all I care, it doesn't bother me at all, but let them finally leave the others alone.
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| Janez Seliškar3. 08. 2015 18:11:17 |
Even in Slovenia it will come to the point that rescue for the injured won't be free anymore, and the insurance company won't pay out the insurance due to non-use of safety equipment either. Then many things will become self-evident.
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| SamoK3. 08. 2015 18:11:29 |
Bravo, dprapr. In the past we mainly took care to have enough experience for the next difficulty level, we inquired precisely what to expect. Equipment was always important, but nowhere near the first place!
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| redbull3. 08. 2015 18:46:03 |
They drive to the end then go down 300-400m to the ferrata. If there was no road as you said I could count them on one hand in the ferrata or Mangart (waste of petrol)
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| dprapr3. 08. 2015 19:17:42 |
Janez, I agree. Let them finally arrange rescue with insurance so we don't constantly hear accusations of provoking, burdening mountain rescuers and causing costs. Let it be precisely specified what the insurance package includes and what not. We'll adjust and pay insurance, no worry. If no funds, then no mountains. We've been through that too!
Definitely better to deal with this than adding new ferratas.
The law should also include the flat part! Charge everyone for rescue, even on flat ground if they caused it themselves. Why should they be exempt? Why always accuse us who move in the "useless world", in the "useful world" you can do many things without insurance and no one blames you.
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| ZeK3. 08. 2015 21:12:44 |
stop with this SVK promotion already.
it's pure commercial nonsense.
if we subtract modern "adrenaline park cables", it holds for most of our paths (and all traditional): where there's a cable, there's "SVK" hand on the cable and firm step. if that's not enough, then the hiker isn't suitable for that path, which can show on the part without cable where SVK can't be used.
soon they'll invent inflatable jackets that repel falling rocks. and those who have them will again look badly at "extremists" walking without them.
it doesn't bother me if people walk with SVK, but looking at others as irresponsible is mildly put ridiculous.
I dare say 100% SVK use would prevent (if at all) a negligible part of accidents.
SVK, best jacket, most expensive boots, GPS, nutrition gels..., don't replace experience, terrain knowledge, orientation ability, common sense, fitness, map reading ability...
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| lino3. 08. 2015 21:35:51 |
ZeK - finally a normally thinking comment without commercial bloating. In plain words - healthy peasant logic.
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| Domch3. 08. 2015 22:24:56 |
The discussion has strayed a bit. To the person asking whether to use SMV I'd still advise using it on this path in peak season. The path is definitely more exposed and demanding than the paths they describe having done, and crowding is much greater with risk of stonefall. But Slovenska isn't among the easier secured paths here, nor the hardest.
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| carniolus6. 08. 2015 14:36:46 |
ZeK, I completely agree. From my experience with SVK. Last year I first climbed Triglav via Kredarica. Not knowing the terrain, I got info mainly from this forum. Based on that I bought SVK and took it along with helmet of course. No experience with such walls yet. I barely used it - only one section where I said I didn't bring it for nothing, clipped a few times. As you said, key for safe movement: health, fitness, steady step, firm grip. SVK great for psyche too - just in case. There are tougher paths where it's useful. Everyone decides own protection. Mocking it is totally inappropriate and immature. If hiker feels safer with SVK, thank God. Safe travels.
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| panda8. 08. 2015 20:28:22 |
Today a bit more serious trip with better half for her SVK training. Start at 8.15 from saddle, given the crowd in Slovenska route (Austrians, Czechs, yes us too) she did great. Summit in 2 hours 15 min. Down Italian route where traffic was insane. At 13 still pushing up despite distant occasional thunder. Excitement on way home didn't fade. Planning next trip already.
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| Vincenc529. 08. 2015 00:23:24 |
SVK excellent thing, for psyche, you never know when you'll need it, even if you never clip it on the way if no need. Depends how one sees things, extremists see it differently, for you it's just ballast. Everyone thinks as they believe right, and that's ok.
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| SamoK9. 08. 2015 00:32:59 |
"For psyche" nothing better than gradual acclimatization to harder and more exposed routes, lots and lots of hill walking and hanging with more experienced. No SVK reaches the knees of that.
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