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Mangart

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Vincenc529. 08. 2015 00:42:07
Yeah, you're right, but not everyone has that option to go or hike in the mountains with more experienced ones, at least most don't. Otherwise everyone decides for themselves whether to protect or not, just a matter of decision, if they feel safer, why not!
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SamoK9. 08. 2015 02:30:55
I commented only because of the remark about "extremists". As has been written several times, a view is starting to be seriously imposed that those of us who don't use SVK are irresponsible or whatever.
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planika829. 08. 2015 07:25:23
Otherwise it would be better to end the debate, but anyway... I completely agree with Zek (and some others). The commercialization of SVK and ardent advocates of its use everywhere (almost even for walking stairs or picking cherries in Goriška Brda), has exceeded all limits. I repeat once again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing and I certainly don't discourage it, I have nothing against its use (in some places it's even necessary – Via della Vita, via Italiana etc.), but forcing mandatory use everywhere and on all paths that have 5m cables is excessive. Then all secured paths here would be max 15 years old. As already written, today many people think that with SVK use they buy everything, but of course it's not that simple. The most important factors for safe walking on secured paths are fitness, arm strength, experience, knowledge, mental readiness, orientation and skill in moving on rocky terrain or climbing skill. Not everyone is for such paths. Regarding falling rocks - the fact is that falling rocks are often a consequence of lack of knowledge and experience in moving in mountains. How not to dislodge rocks (or that it happens as little as possible) is an integral part of knowledge and experience that hikers learn from young and can't be bought in a mountaineering store. But today it's considered that if you buy SVK, you're ready for all demanding paths, so the picture is completely different. I often meet female hikers and hikers who have neither minimal knowledge of skills in moving on rocks, nor arm strength nor experience and literally drag and hang on the cable, can't find a single natural step or hold, and besides dislodge whole avalanches endangering others. What good is SVK if you're lower on the path on gravelly base over a precipice where there's no cable, and above you a bunch of previously described ones dislodge salvos? I don't say it's the only reason for dislodging rocks, but with mass visits of variously (in)experienced hikers this phenomenon has significantly increased.

As already said, most accidents happen on slips (and certainly not falling from cable), that is on steep gravelly terrains, where experience, skill, fitness and sober head come most to the fore (and even that's not always enough). On no secured path has the hardest part ever seemed to me on the cables, but on the previously described, i.e. gravelly over precipices (and almost every secured path has such sections).

In conclusion, to the average mountaineer who considers himself experienced (not occasional hiker), and finds the Slovenian on Mangart too demanding, too little secured and too exposed, and for that reason condemns walking this path without SVK to experienced mountaineers (excluding falling rocks), has no business in high mountains. There are countless sections on all secured paths where exposure is similar or even greater, but reliable step (and simultaneously hold) due to the base is not there. How does someone who 100% relies on SVK and doesn't have appropriate knowledge and experience manage there then? SVK is in many cases a false security that hikers can do a certain path, but actually they're not prepared for such places. And to answer some comments: I in no way underestimate any path, regardless of length or crowdedness. I have equal respect for paths that take 1 hour, 3 hours or 8 hours. Disrespect and underestimation, regarding Mangart (and some others), I see in Sunday hikers who tackle the path at 11am in the worst heat, wearing canvas sneakers, and possibly dragging a dog along. After 15 min they pant as if they've walked half way to Everest. That's disrespect unparalleled for me. Unfortunately Mangart today (as primoza and redbull already wrote) due to access almost to the top is the most vivid example of what I'm talking about. The remark about extremists is in my opinion quite out of place.
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Janez Seliškar9. 08. 2015 07:48:30
I'm sure that someone from average hikers based on all this hot debate will finally be convinced of the usefulness of using the self-belay kit and will use it more often.
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Vincenc529. 08. 2015 08:58:39
planika82 Everything you wrote holds true as nailed down. With the word extremist I didn't mean anything bad, let alone insult, I apologize, just a bit of adrenaline doesn't hurt, but in the end everyone decides themselves what to do. Whether to protect or not, everyone is responsible for themselves and especially in mountains also to others. After all 10-15 years ago nobody heard of SVK, and it went fine. Just one more aid, which isn't bad. Individual's decision whether to use it or not.
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Rutil9. 08. 2015 10:25:24
"everyone is responsible for themselves"

exactly so, that's why any moralizing and scolding from others is senseless and inappropriate.

"and especially in the mountains also to others"

actually NO. precisely because some feel responsible also for strangers, the moralizing/scolding starts because some go without SVK.
who cares if someone else goes with or without SVK on a path? why should I feel responsible for some strangers? regardless of whether they go with or without SVK. I wish them a safe path, if God forbid needed I'll help them, but to nag someone because they go without SVK or worry about a stranger - yeah right.
if you're not exactly parent/guardian or trip leader, you have no business meddling in others' equipment.


"I'm sure that some average hiker based on all this hot debate will be convinced of the usefulness of using a self-belay kit and will use it more often."

yeah sure, especially for Mrzla Gora for example, or the path through Plemenice, or to Rjavina through that chimney secured only with pitons, or... there are really many such places with us and having SVK on these paths/sections is really useful right?


"the insurance company won't pay out due to non-use of safety equipment either. Then many things will become self-evident."

then it will also become self-evident that with us in 99.9% we don't have vias ferratas but very demanding marked paths and if the insurance wants to introduce something like that, they'll first have to cable all paths from start to end.
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Janez Seliškar9. 08. 2015 11:09:12
Ignorance is no excuse for wrong behavior.
Better to warn than to have to help someone because of ignorance.
I believe "Rutil" that it's easier to look away, see nothing and know nothing and care only for one's own good, even over the corpses of others.
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Rutil9. 08. 2015 12:10:07
"Ignorance is no excuse for wrong behavior."

nowhere do I claim it is, but what makes you (or me, or anyone else) an authority to tell others? or when will you take the time for me to come to your home and warn you how you must live - I'll justify with your statement "Better to warn than to have to help someone because of ignorance."
or should I rather take care of my own life and leave yours alone?


"I believe "Rutil" that it's easier to look away, see nothing and know nothing and care only for one's own good, even over the corpses of others."

LOL....but really LOL for "corpses of others".
yes, I take care of my own good. and since I take very good care, others don't need to worry about me, but can focus on their excursion. and that's how it should be.

how many lives have you saved by warning folks not to go to Mrzla Gora without SVK? let's see how many corpses on that path were prevented by your warning. how many accidents on Mrzla Gora would have been prevented by using SVK?
or is your warning as useful as SVK on the mentioned path?

please elaborate also on the usefulness of SVK on the previously mentioned paths - so what good is SVK on the path to Mrzla Gora and what on the path through Plemenice? How does SVK help you on the path to Mangart from Loška Koritnica valley over those steep grasses (for me one of the most unpleasant sections in Slovenian mountains)?
since you're an advocate of mandatory SVK use, tell where SVK is useful on these paths/sections or how SVK helps you in such sections?
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Janez Seliškar9. 08. 2015 12:44:08
"Rutil", if you asked me, I will of course answer you.
For all three listed paths, the self-belay kit is recommended, as for many other paths in Slovenia.
Enjoy the mountain paths, as you don't lack self-confidence.

With this I conclude my commenting on the usefulness of using a self-belay kit.
The moment an individual realizes they needed it, it's too late and no self-confidence helps anymore.

I'm sure the conditions on the paths to Mangart are without peculiarities and this insert about self-belay kits hasn't worsened them.
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Rutil9. 08. 2015 12:54:54
"The moment an individual realizes they needed it, it's too late and no self-confidence helps anymore."

especially on such sections:
http://hribi.net/slika.asp?pot=18379
http://hribi.net/slika.asp?pot=223259
http://hribi.net/slika.asp?pot=31804

don't know what without SVK here...


"With this I conclude my commenting on the usefulness of using a self-belay kit."

only right, since you haven't written/answered anything concrete anywhere about SVK usefulness, except cheap unrelated crap that you unsuccessfully tried to sell (without arguments!) as answer....which is kind of standard for little Slovenians who feel called to lecture others, but can't even answer simple questions - logical, since arguing is harder than selling bullshit (I admit you really shine at the latter).
but kudos for selective use of words "recommended" and "useful". someone who reads quickly won't even notice your lack of consistency in the written crap...
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panda9. 08. 2015 12:55:55
Maybe PZS and the Insurance Company would solve the issue regarding the obligation to use SVK in a very simple way in the case of eligibility for compensation for injury. At the entrance to the climbing path, mark appropriately on the sign: mandatory use of SVK. This can be arranged very quickly time-wise through those responsible for climbing paths.nasmeh
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GregorC9. 08. 2015 13:00:37
The magic word is recommended. Meaning not mandatory. And that's exactly the problem, because some act as if it is and look at you like the worst offender if you don't have it. If you yourself don't know if you're capable of traversing something with or without, no one else can know that. And if you're not capable of traversing the path without SVK, that doesn't mean someone else can't and vice versa. If you're not sure, just take it with you (there's rental if you don't have it, so no need to buy it on the spot) and you'll see right there if you need it or not. Better it stays in the backpack than it's not there if you need it.
And a bit more patience in the mountains and watching others what they're like and how they walk, enjoy nature more, and everyone will feel better.
Accidents unfortunately happen and will. But more accidents is somehow logical, since there are also (quite) more visitors.
p.s. I don't have an SVK myself.
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GregorC9. 08. 2015 13:03:58
panda, but not every path is a climbing path. We have at most demanding secured paths, which still isn't a climbing path. Ferratas like Gonžarjeva peč or Češka koča are something else and on such paths it's self-evident that you have SVK.
The biggest problem is distinguishing secured path and climbing path, which for many of us is still one and the same. Cable as cable.
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Rutil9. 08. 2015 13:07:12
"At the entrance to the climbing path mark appropriately on the sign: mandatory use of SVK"

and when the accident happens on sections without cable?
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panda9. 08. 2015 13:08:52
You didn't understand me: if the Insurance Company conditions the payment of the insurance for injury due to non-use of SVK, then it should be clearly stated on the path sign.

Accident can happen anywhere on the path. Unfortunately.
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lino9. 08. 2015 13:15:14
Under Forum - Conditions on Mangart I read and read discussions about the necessity and usefulness of SVK and against its use and almost the danger of using SVK. I must say I'm almost more confused about use and non-use than I was before reading. I have the feeling that we've already brought some political mentality to the forum: people need to be thrown a bone to gnaw and chew. Real problems are pushed into the background.
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Rutil9. 08. 2015 13:20:25
"I must say I'm almost more confused about use and non-use than before reading."

that's a question you can only answer yourself and even that for each hike individually.
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kremenckov ata9. 08. 2015 15:12:50
If you can't walk safely along the cable, better don't go. Get a guide and he'll treat you like a human being, but if you're going to break in half at the cable, think!!
And it's slower with those kits; whenever I rush down into the hole along Banbergova before the base, they hang like hams on those few meters of cable. PIR isn't always cold, throat is dry, who wouldn't take a little sipbig
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Keko9. 08. 2015 18:33:49
Via ferrata kit is mandatory only on real ferratas where there's no messing around, with us (Gonžarjeva peč, Ferrata to Češka koča and also this new one on Lisco), everywhere else with us it's an individual matter. A few years ago, for example, on the ferrata in Železna Kapla I saw a runner flying over it without protection, which is really quite extreme.
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INŽ9. 08. 2015 19:07:51
I climbed ferrata on Lisco today, it's quite good. All praise to PD Sevnica who made it.
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