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| jax25. 05. 2018 14:12:28 |
In short, you can pull on the cable but not the peg? Ugh, we'll hear lots more. Let's be clear that the function of the iron in via ferrata also serves progression and free climbing via ferrata is total nonsense (though it's seen, e.g., Italians in Glinščica). Alpinism is completely different, there it's clear what is free and what not.
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| drava2225. 05. 2018 14:47:37 |
Ugh, here you are scientists, no wonder this portal lately is more like Facebook users than serious hiking and useful info less and less, more and more selfies and squabbles D/E/F..... mirror of our society.
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| VanSims25. 05. 2018 18:19:53 |
@donkihott meant aid of pegs holding cables and of course gripping the cable, using lanyard for other than resting ... Cable and anchors not for that and it's nothing but cheating! Can't say you climbed a ferrata if you do that.
Cable primarily for self-belay. Only then progression. When we pull on cable or not, depends on individual, their skill and ultimately taste.
@jax: Yeah, Italians known for testing free-climbing skills on ferratas, not just Glinščica. 
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| janezs7325. 05. 2018 19:02:51 |
no need to be impatient... pics (even those with people in foreground) help someone get an impression of route, surroundings, etc... ratings give us an idea of whether we make it or not... on cables it's like this - I too was of VanSims' opinion until abroad I discovered different ferratas (e.g. already mentioned Geiler Hengst in Austria) than classic Dolomites ferrata (e.g. Constantini on Moiazza)... on sport ferratas cables far from only for protection... not just few meters but dozens in a row.. also extremely hard ferratas where mostly free climb beside it (no pulling on cable) - e.g. Rosslochhöhlen Klettersteig - Seemauer, real special among E ferratas and true topological puzzle
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| VanSims25. 05. 2018 19:39:00 |
Yeah, when we use cable for progression totally depends... among other things also on terrain topology.
One way of saving strength in hard ferratas is also not to pull on the cable everywhere it's needed or not. Free climbing works different muscles than pulling. We save the latter for when it's really needed.
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| don kihott25. 05. 2018 21:01:57 |
Rosslochhöhlen has right after you cross that two-cable bridge a D/E rating in the Bergsteigen guidebook and the same in the Schall guidebook... Rating D/E is not E and is an intermediate rating... From the bridge you enter the cave and climb vertically up, then a bit of traversing to the right and you're out; of course it's full of foot pegs over the cave... nice via ferrata
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| don kihott25. 05. 2018 22:09:42 |
Janezs73...Regarding photos with (people in the foreground) I completely agree with you, as someone can more easily imagine the route's course and through photos with descriptions also more easily understand the topo sketch/map of a via ferrata and on that basis make a considered decision
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| janezs7326. 05. 2018 07:51:10 |
@VanSims: I absolutely agree with this saving energy thing.. probably the reason is also that during climbing the body is in a different position, even on the same rock, than when hanging on the cable.. due to arm extension when pulling on the cable the body is much more extended backwards than when gripping rock holds... the trouble is only that the cable is routed in such a way that you can't help much with rock structures 
@Don kihott: I didn't intend to complicate with the grade (of course I agree with D/E), I just wanted to illustrate that you can also climb rock structures in harder via ferratas... Rosslochhöhlen is particularly handy for free climbing next to the cable due to the ladder-like structures in the hole
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| don kihott26. 05. 2018 08:32:52 |
janezs73...Regarding Geiler Hengst (Kempermauer) Rosenau am Hengstpass...After the second bridge of two cables you enter the harder part of the via ferrata, which is about 250m long and routed over an overhanging pillar...In this part the via ferrata has 2x E grade, pegs are only where really necessary...E grade is at the very end of the via ferrata, namely in a slightly overhanging traverse to the right that crosses the rock belly and even has some pegs that were added afterwards after the opening of the via ferrata (2012)...If I want to climb rock structure I rather go to the crag since a fall doing that on a via ferrata can be fatal or in any case leaves severe consequences on the body and in the head!!!...(I've already seen a fall like that and it looks horrible!!!)...Due to the increasing popularity of via ferratas there are many more accidents about which almost nothing is said!!!..
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| MiAn26. 05. 2018 19:46:23 |
So that means we crawl over via ferratas without cable assistance. Interesting.. Say the spacing between clips is 5 meters somewhere, even ten somewhere. (Even on Gonžar it's at least four meters spacing and don't allow a fall just when you're at the next peg but not yet clipped to the next cable).
The self-belay set has about 2 meters of rope, stretching max three meters. If I fall from the upper peg which is say six meters from the lower one, fall factor is 2. Which means injuries are mostly fatal. Fall factor 1 is acceptable, more than that is already dangerous.
Not to mention fall from upper to lower peg where distance is 10 meters, which is not uncommon at all. There injuries are statistically deadly.
Cables and pegs on via ferratas are meant to be used! Free climbing on via ferratas can thus be deadly dangerous. Of course people try it, but via ferratas are not meant for that!
That's why there are crags, where your second belays you and both ensure that in no case the fall factor is greater than one!
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| coffee26. 05. 2018 19:55:09 |
On via ferratas everyone progresses as they like. If they progress freely and get injured or die because of it, it's the same as injury/death in free climbing be it at the crag or on the wall.
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| don kihott26. 05. 2018 22:02:54 |
MiAn...I don't know what via ferratas you climb??...10m spacing between anchors I haven't seen yet, 5m maybe in some traverse, in vertical I strongly doubt!!!
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| jax27. 05. 2018 10:58:45 |
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| janezs7327. 05. 2018 17:41:03 |
I see I triggered an unnecessary discussion .. unintentionally... my intent wasn't to argue if via ferratas are suitable for free climbing or not, but just about the strain in vertical/overhanging parts of via ferratas when we pull only on cables being much greater than when using some rock ledges... the Rosslochhohlen example wasn't the best either - I highlighted it where rock shapes of various kinds really help so you don't have to hang only on cables or progress easier...
I myself rarely have both hands on the cable, where I do it's because climbing next to the cable is too complicated or too dangerous.. everyone knows for themselves what they do on the wall
and a comment on falls in via ferratas - they are extremely dangerous in via ferratas, we all agree on that, and if someone goes to via ferratas to fall and test if they get through (e.g. similar to crags), they're not really mature for via ferratas... that's what grades are for so people don't overdo... and that's why forums exist, to exchange impressions if grades are comparable... trouble arises with underrated via ferratas because then people don't expect difficulties they should
@don kihott: the above data for geiler hengst are wrong and can put someone in danger... correcting for people who want to climb it: the upper overhanging part of the pillar is 120 m high, at the top of the pillar you're approx 10 to 15 m away from the point where you entered this pillar part (i.e. at the second bridge) - from there to the top of the ferrata there are only three points where you can stand without meanwhile hanging on arms or lanyard and independent of pegs... entering this ferrata without lanyard (maybe even two depending on technique) is reckless and calling for accident... in front of me was a couple who, as I learned later, had climbed a bunch of E ferratas in Austria before, flew off badly 3x and after one hour with rope maneuver barely climbed out.. I rested many times on lanyards and always hung in the air... I'd really like to see photos of the one who climbed geiler hengst and didn't notice this overhanging pillar.. the sketch on bergsteigen with A/B parts (below) and B at top is misleading, those are actually two of the three points where you can "rest" on feet... typical for that bergsteigen description is underrated grade by at least half if not a whole grade.. if someone needs more precise data, contact me on ZS
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| don kihott27. 05. 2018 20:54:41 |
Janezs73...Every discussion is good for something...You just forgot to mention that in the wall of G.Hengst ferrata there is no cell signal
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| VanSims27. 05. 2018 21:14:01 |
I'm not at home in the most extreme via ferratas but Bergsteigen in my opinion has pretty realistic grades, if anything sometimes slightly overrates like say the ferratas I did this weekend: della Memoria and Varmost!
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| don kihott28. 05. 2018 07:38:05 |
Della Memoria is the memorial via ferrata by that dam, where the slope slid into the lake and the water wave literally splashed over the dam and flooded the village located below..
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| janezs732. 06. 2018 13:54:14 |
@primoza: this week I found time and one evening checked the difficulty of the right via ferrata on Sp.Plot again... this time without climbing shoes.. conclusions:
with shoes that don't grip the foot as tightly as climbing shoes, on the lower slab you really can't do it any other way than pushing almost perpendicularly with your foot on the slab. That means hands are quite loaded. And since the slab is "almost 3 pitons" long (about 10 m), I agree with you Primož, or with the E/F rating.. definitely incomparably harder than typical D/E (Železna kapla, Rosslochohle, Luft unter den Sohlen), and harder than most E (Lukax Max, Fallbach, I Magnifici 4, Češka koča (that one is overrated and in my opinion doesn't reach E), Gonžarjeva, Johann in Dachstein)... still in my opinion not as hard as Geiler Hengst.. unfortunately I haven't climbed Burgeralm Arena yet, so I can't compare (even if it's officially harder by at least one full grade).
The problem on Sp.Plot (right) is really that the vertical, perhaps slightly overhanging slab is quite long... Even the overhang in the middle seemed easier to me this time (shorter!)
Whatever we rate this via ferrata, by all criteria it's the hardest of all ours.
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| Daaam2. 06. 2018 14:57:49 |
I suggest we give it a Z rating like Zaje...o 
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| bperc16. 06. 2018 18:35:47 |
Have you already gone to check in Griffen... I think there's none like that here, and probably the hardest in Austrian Carinthia...
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