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| urbancek10. 10. 2011 16:50:52 |
I don't know what primoza wants to tell us forum readers when he writes that his little ones found the tour such and such. What's the message or point of this story that we get from it? Ok, if once or twice you write that you found the tour this or that ok, but this one already went by some "template" whose sense I didn't understand and still don't today...
Best regards!
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| pohodnik1110. 10. 2011 19:14:03 |
The difficulty is officially rated and if you just want to change that then this forum is not the right address! The same should apply to other paths! For now let the official ratings stand!
Regarding the self-belaying system for children I would almost agree with you, but it's not the only most suitable one, this one is also exceptional:
http://www.kibuba.com/index.php?&cID=4&scID=30&pID=2078
try it you'll see it's fantastic…
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| pohodnik1110. 10. 2011 21:01:28 |
yes possible but I also looked at the ease of clipping and opening the "clamp".. because if slippage happens you usually slide slowly but of course faster and faster... but calculated enough for belay kits to reach a position from which you can rescue yourself later even alone.
Direct falls are very rare they are in vertical walls or very steep and airy slopes and even that is more "reserved" for if something hits you...
Probably no ideal kit - but worth trying this one ...
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| 100jan10. 10. 2011 21:42:00 |
or this multi-purpose one:
 1
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| mici511. 10. 2011 00:06:48 |
On Saturday, 8.10. we climbed and walked the path on Gradiška tour. The climbing part of the path is excellently secured, the part from the junction to the top drags on a bit. We were a little worried that on the way back due to wet ground it would slip, but no panic. Of course we returned via the detour path. Definitely a good idea and choice to spend part of Saturday after that snowfall.
We used the self-belay kit, helmet too. But it's true that one young guy (probably local) literally flew over the climbing part of the path - without helmet, kit, gloves... and then he just vanished, he he he. You could see that the tour was "breakfast" for him - to get the blood pumping a bit.
And some personal opinion on the debate about children on such paths:
I read a bit of this chatter and I have to say (regardless of what dad primoza and ŠpRo29 say), that dragging children on such tours by parents is REALLY a publicity act, which is dangerous and risky. And I read that primoza writes a lot about joint tours and what the children say. Well, nothing wrong with that. What do the kids' moms say? Very globally, that one is willing to share their children with the wide world (smart, so very grown-up, active...).
What I want to say is that I'm afraid the time we live in has blurred the lines between what is somewhere parentally normal and still acceptable and what some do "just so it's known they're something special". Anyway, a lot happens on an unconscious level. And compensating one's deficiencies with one's children.... well yeah!
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| Zebdi11. 10. 2011 08:33:00 |
@mici5: you're generalizing too much. If the girl climbs sport climbing routes of difficulty 7a (and I have no reason not to believe it), then a secured path is a walk for her, in the vertical she feels much more at home than 99% of adults who don't climb. Dangerous and risky is for all who are not up to it - regardless of their age.
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| potepinka11. 10. 2011 08:47:38 |
When a dad is found who doesn't wrap his kids in cotton wool, but takes them secured "front and back" among the rocks and then publishes it publicly, obviously he needs to be lynched. These kids (judging by the pictures) use all the gear, which we can't always say for many older (and supposedly smarter) ones. They obviously don't lack fitness, probably there are more older ones with less fitness in the mountains and thus risk injuries or even worse. Just that those admit less often that they can't (do) something, than children (they, when they don't feel like it, know how to say it very well). For knowledge too I believe these two kids have more than many of us, and they learn on the go.
In short, in my opinion these from "primoza" are doing just fine and if at the end they write a few words on this portal and hang a few pics (like many others) we can only be happy for them. Comments that someone will take the tour as easy because a seven-year-old rated it that way, I think are out of place, because I hope no one goes on a tour just with one read comment. A proper one will take such a comment with nostalgia and remember the times when everything was easy for him and he hid scraped knees under his pants from his folks…
Otherwise – he just took them to kindergarten: 
"A magnificent example of a ferrata kindergarten where you can learn in all seasons is the Gradiška tour above Vipava, or above Gradišče above Vipava. On it you will struggle for a good half hour, it will require knowledge and strength of the fourth difficulty class (out of five), your head can spin too, yet you will be on Vipava, more or less warm, though windy. But as you didn't go to kindergarten alone the first time, let a climbing parent accompany you to Gradiška the first and maybe second time."
Source: Junaki na popkovnici
(some kids, others conquer like that…)
P.S.: I apologize for being too long and for not everything being written in proper Slovenian and for showing up at all, but up here obviously the opinion prevails that everyone who doesn't do things the way we would has to be lynched. 
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| CarpeDiem24711. 10. 2011 10:46:58 |
I see that quite a few of you agree with what I wrote, at the same time I like that the level of communication remains appropriate and that there was no major grudge from Primoze's side. But this forum is public and he of course has the right to give his kids' statement on what they think of the path. I just wanted to say that the same comment repeats and I (well-meaningly) warned that unfortunately it can mislead someone which can end very unpleasantly! 
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| geppo11. 10. 2011 13:02:21 |
If I now posted photos where I took my son before cck. 15 years ago and with what gear??? (no gear)
what outrage there would be!!.... whole columns of posts written
For me and everyone I met then it was just normal. The hut warden showed no surprise when we arrived early in the morning for tea and answered the question (where are you going and which path?). For no one was I an irresponsible dad... I didn't feel irresponsible at all myself.
Today, it's apparently completely different...
Now he has done the alpine course and diligently climbs, as much as study time allows.
Regards
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| janna11. 10. 2011 14:07:34 |
Geppo, exactly. They also took me as a child on various paths, without I don't know what gear ... 20 or 30 years later I have a helmet, self-belay kit, and quite a few other things. Which I think is right, to be clear. Especially from the perspective of accidents, which, obviously, are increasing.
So, super for such a dad like primoza, because judging by the pictures, his kids look very happy, smiling. Really no feeling that someone is forcing them into the mountains. Equipped, now with lots of mileage behind them.
Primoza, you can be an example to many (especially those on the home couch and behind the computer). I absolutely support that!
I don't know if I would post so many kids' pics ... If you've decided so, that's fine too.
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| B211. 10. 2011 16:40:00 |
Like Igor, I also agree that the secured Furlan path over Gradiška tour is harder than many in our Alps. Generally it was renovated by the technical team KZP PZS in 2002. I participated in the renovation in this framework myself and of course some members of PD Vipava too. On this occasion TV Koper filmed a short report, which was broadcast several times also in studios of other Slovenian TVs. The entry part to the climbing section of the path is left unsecured on purpose, so that selection already happens here. I must add that we did the work excellently back then, as the path is still like it was at the end of the work even after ten years. The bypass path is intended for the return and is pleasant for descent despite steep sections. It makes me very happy that users praise it and every critical remark is welcome...
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| VanSims11. 10. 2011 16:51:43 |
@Geppo, @janna: we can't compare the times 20-30 years ago with today. Those were harsh times! Back then not so much attention was paid to safety, people weren't so aware yet. Not much was known about equipment and it wasn't so available either. Consequently, there were proportionally more accidents.
Maybe there aren't any fewer today but that's because mountain visits are so massive and even complete mountaineering illiterates go there. Whoever wants to secure themselves and their loved ones today can do it! Plenty of equipment at (say) affordable prices, plenty is written about it and more and more is talked about.
Once again: as LG already hinted: children need to move or I'd say have some occupation. It's not just about obesity as LG mentions later; due to boredom, alcohol, drugs can appear...
If the child does it with joy it's all OK. I'm just against going to the other extreme, forcing the child into something like piano, ballet, sports, catechism...
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| geppo11. 10. 2011 17:09:06 |
All OK
just too much is written, discussed, judged... too many letters for a couple of pics (and not only those from "primoza"). I, when I looked at his post about Gradiška: nice weather, cute 7-year-old, equipped in "0", well protected path (rated flawless by the post author) they had a good time, kudos to them. Also, I wasn't surprised that the 7-year-old rated it "easy" in those conditions. He already had.
Then it starts...
Regards
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| geppo11. 10. 2011 19:09:28 |
primoza
On Vinska gora I haven't gone yet, because it's quite new.
Vinska g. (Gonžarica) is in a class of its own in difficulty (D/E). This ferrata is quite high in the difficulty class. Here, I wouldn't take a child unless I really knew his abilities and behavior in such difficulty.
I still swear (like Mijo too - http://atv.hamradio.si/photo_album/Climbing_and_Mountaineering/index.html) says: at least Lawaünda school without using pegs and that "nice" piton in D zone. There you can assess a bit up to what level you can go. Then you continue upgrading climbing in secured paths and ferratas.
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| janna11. 10. 2011 20:32:07 |
VanSims, we understand each other  , years ago people really weren't so aware yet, and it's right that today so much is talked about equipment and behavior in mountains. I for example basically don't leave home without a helmet anymore. Back then it really wasn't like that.
Reading and watching primoza's reports is in my opinion very enjoyable, because obviously nobody forces them into it, and they have an excellent "tour leader" child too, so ...
That thing about forcing kids into various activities is totally beside the point for me ...
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| mici511. 10. 2011 23:57:45 |
primoza writes:
I'm glad that the matter stayed at some cultural level and that various opinions of very different and also very competent people were exchanged quite peacefully.
Here I would ask for explanation, or answers. And concretely, please.
1. Whose opinions are very competent here?
2. Let primoza explain to me what are the criteria for ranking the most, a bit less and least competent on these pages?
Because personally I think all opinions are interesting and written by people who have certain experiences and I'd say they are competent to state their opinion.
Me, for example, VanSims convinced me.
But as soon as I mentioned the name, I was unfair to the others who also stated their opinions and views (which told me a lot, which seem ok to me, which explained and reassured me or teased a bit...)
I think the introductory sentence ranks the users of these pages in a fine way and so (a bit slyly).
Let the author of the introductory sentence not mind my view.
To the others - thanks.
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| 100jan12. 10. 2011 10:57:42 |
I'm just going to that area and I'm interested how long it takes, and for Nanos too. Thanks.
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| BT8812. 10. 2011 11:00:04 |
22min Gr. Tour- 45 min Abram- 1.45 Vojkova hut
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| CarpeDiem24712. 10. 2011 11:16:37 |
If you go slowly you can count also half an hour for Furlanova path!
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