Cyclists in the mountains
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| VanSims10. 10. 2013 08:38:38 |
In Martuljek Wilderness there probably aren't any, likewise not on PP.  
Anyway, I don't know what sense it makes to drag a bike to Triglav.  Not saying to Planika, Dolič, say, to Kredarica then on foot to the top and back and then descent. But to the top of Triglav!
And of course I wouldn't moralize that it's TNP(OK back then maybe different laws and of course less supervision).
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| bdolmovi28. 01. 2014 15:27:38 |
One day this painter will get caught and then with Kamnik markers there will be no mercy. If he has such joy let him report to us at PD Kamnik, believe me he will have work over his head. We don't have problem only with so-called painters but also another sort of extreme athletes namely cyclists who ride on marked paths, where it's not allowed but straight across and thus destroy humus, make new paths on which then hikers also walk. So then at certain forks there are three tracks and more you don't know which is the right marked one. So on the marked path towards Dolina Dol there are no wooden steps for a long time, which were made for easier step or drainage, which is very important so that water drains properly. At the last accidental encounter with cyclists they were ready to argue with me even for two hours if necessary and convinced me that they are right, but that doesn't hold true. I hope there will be as few of these extremes as possible because otherwise we wonder why maintain paths if everyone can do what they please. Thanks to all who report what happens on certain paths even those not marked, it's a pity that this happens since there was already talk to put some pegs over the jump over Šraj pesek for easier passage and because of such events this surely won't happen. Nice regards to all.
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| tol29. 01. 2014 10:04:19 |
@bdolmovi
Please don't point the finger only at mountain cyclists.
Shortcuts are also made by pedestrians, hikers, mountaineers, alpinists...
OK the path through Dolski graben is "problematic" I agree..but this path has its story, connected to comfort and quick access enabled by the cable car...
but also the path to Kamniški vrh has 100 different possible approaches...? Why? Isn't one path to the top enough? And what are these paths? Completely degraded, countless shortcuts and variants... that's a matter of high frequency and large visits... and same story with Dolski graben....
I myself don't use the path through Dol anymore, because I'm aware of the problem...my personal opinion is that the path should be closed, for nature to recover. But do you dare to close the path for pedestrians also to Kamniški vrh?
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| FSkok29. 01. 2014 10:23:02 |
Maybe this issue regarding shortcuts, especially cyclists on hiking PEDESTRIAN PATHS among hikers is not well known enough. The authorities have long been warning that with the mass of these "offenses", irreparable damage is being done to the paths and consequently to the nature around them.
For example; When path markers maintain a certain path, the most important thing is to drain the water off the path as soon as possible, because water causes the most damage in terms of erosion. Since shortcuts often cut across serpentine paths, water during rain flows perpendicularly onto the path via these shortcuts. Since such shortcuts quickly become established, during heavy rains they turn into real torrents and with every rain the damage only increases... An example of such reckless up-and-down racing is among others the path to Kamniško sedlo.
The problem with cyclists on hiking paths is that during descents they loosen or erode the path with braking, and the rest is then done by water again. To tell the truth, something similar unfortunately happens due to the use of hiking poles, but those somehow belong on the hiking path, a bike doesn't... A good example of such damage is the path from Primož towards Velika planina, where in some places in a few years it has turned from a nice path into a gully due to erosion.
When we next take our beautiful paths, let's also think about the fact that it is the duty of every true hiker to warn others to walk on marked paths (where they are) and that cycling on hiking paths is not appropriate or desirable (not forbidden yet).
As for the so-called mazači, it's not worth wasting words...
Let this post not be taken as lecturing, but as a well-intentioned warning to all (including me) users of hiking paths.
Best hiking regards, F.Skok
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| tol29. 01. 2014 11:34:33 |
@FSkok
are you kidding?
"A good example of such damage is the path from Primož towards Velika planina, where in some places in a few years from a nice path, due to erosion a gully has formed."
???
The gully was formed because the agricultural community decided to widen the path with an excavator...
If anything, you know, this path is one of the oldest hiking paths and was intended for livestock transport...
do you know what kind of "massacre" happens when they drive cattle down the valley after rain?
The fact is that both pedestrian and cyclist leave traces in nature. Look at the path to Kamniški vrh, direct (old variant)... How many cyclists do you think rode there? or near Rož?
Please understand and don't treat yourselves as if pedestrians don't leave traces in nature... the path itself is a trace that affects erosion...
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| FSkok29. 01. 2014 21:35:10 |
@tol
Obviously you don't understand my appeal or take it as an attack on cyclists, so let me emphasize once again. The fact is that marked hiking paths are intended for PEDESTRIANS, that's why they are called that way.
"The fact is that both pedestrian and cyclist leave traces in nature. Look at the path to Kamniški vrh, direct (old variant)... How many cyclists do you think rode there? wink or near Rož?
Please understand and don't treat yourselves as if pedestrians don't leave traces in nature... the path itself is a trace that affects erosion..."
Our ancestors obviously realized this fact, that's why today there are people called path markers who are trained and commissioned by PZS to try to mitigate the damage that pedestrians cause on marked paths as much as possible. As you know, this is volunteer work and we do it with pleasure, so it bothers or angers us even more when individuals with their selfish and thoughtless actions destroy the fruits of our work...
No hard feelings, F.Skok
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| tol30. 01. 2014 08:06:10 |
@FSkok
How are we supposed to take your writing if you say that due to cyclists the path to Velika planina has turned from a path into a gully?
OK, finally we've established that everyone causes damage in nature, both pedestrians and cyclists.
Now let someone tell me why some are allowed to "cause" damage and others not?
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| FSkok30. 01. 2014 10:44:51 |
@Tol
As far as I know, the damage we're talking about is not prohibited by law, but it's up to each individual's judgment what is allowed and what not.
That path markers should maintain hiking paths for hikers but not for cyclists stems from the fact that PZS trained us for that and gave us the mandate, not the Slovenian Cycling Federation!
It is true, however, that often all cyclists on hiking paths are "lumped together", although it must be considered that a trekking cyclist on flat and hardened paths doesn't cause noticeable damage, while the impact of a "downhiller" on steep and usually rugged paths is quite brutal. That's why the path mentioned in the first comment! I don't claim that hiking paths are destroyed because of cyclists, I just say that on certain paths cyclists or better said "downhillers" contribute a significant share to erosion and path damage.
But the actions mentioned by BorisM are certainly welcome and local clubs could use them more often. This would probably also mean much less friction on the pedestrian-cyclist relation on hiking paths, although the new law is supposed to prevent that, which I think is a shame, because personally I think there are many hiking paths in Slovenia that pedestrians and cyclists could share with some joint agreement on maintenance.
Skok
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| GregorC30. 01. 2014 13:39:06 |
FSkok also in PZS there is a department for touring cycling, which is probably a more competent interlocutor in this debate than KZS, where there is more emphasis on road cycling. Of course mountain biking is included there too, but they run it more in the context of competitions than anything else.
As for path maintenance, cyclists are quite active especially at the local level. And I'm sure that if we agreed and legalized the use of certain hiking paths also for cycling, cyclists would contribute even more to their maintenance and thus relieve the path markers. Otherwise, I know quite a few path markers who also do mountain biking. It's also a fact that if more clubs had a section for touring cycling, more cyclists would certainly join, which would then mean more funds for path maintenance. I think that from the hikers' side it's a bit misunderstood that paths would be used by both pedestrians and cyclists, but maintained only by hikers. (after all, a cyclist is also a mountaineer) Believe me, if the path is not cleared, cycling is no pleasure either, just like walking. In short, agreement and cooperation from both sides is important. And above all tolerance, because there is enough space for everyone!
You're right that downhillers are the biggest problem here, which cyclists themselves try to discipline. The biggest problem with them is in the vicinity of cities and where there is easier access to the top, since such a cyclist has no joy in a strenuous ascent. Bike parks are meant for them!
Best regards, Gregor
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| slamca30. 01. 2014 18:19:11 |
I'm not a mountain biker, but I know that cyclists don't destroy paths with tires. Yeah, who "brakes" down the hill so that the bike skids? Don't bullshit, he'd lie there immediately. Hikers, mountaineers are the bigger problem. For example: path - mulatiera to Komna. That was destroyed long ago by hikers with shortcuts before the boom of mountain biking. But it's like this, Slovenes will never find a compromise and live in harmony. If we can't agree even in the village, how will we elsewhere.
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| gams4431. 01. 2014 10:47:35 |
if you're already talking I'd invite you to an action on kamniski vrh then we'll see how many of you come when something needs to be done you're nowhere when it's time to write then you just yap over each other. and I don't even know why you use brakes on dolski graben I don't know why you brake exactly you can see how it's churned up by cyclists whereas hikers can't do such damage foot as with bike .I check this path every year so don't think the caretaker of this path is PD BAJTAR in the end I listen to them how hikers complain about cyclists hope in the end I'd invite you to a joint action in dolski graben to see how many of you come or you'll just yap and with you there will be NOTHING.
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| tol31. 01. 2014 11:02:12 |
@gams44
Dolski graben is its own story.
The cable car contributes to the fact that the visit to this path by cyclists is very high. The record of one (1) cyclist on this path in one day is 10 descents.
The convenience of location and transport is "suitable" also for riding in "less favorable" conditions... read: mud and massacre on the path
The last time I walked this path on foot, I even ran into a motorcyclist who decided to ride through Dolski graben....
In short, it's a path used by both "touring" cyclists and "racers" or downhillers who do even multiple runs per day... of course at "full speed", also with skidding and everything that goes with the madness...
There are multiple interests, one is hiking-touring cycling and the other downhiller-cable car interest....
Here it would be necessary to talk and agree whether VP will advertise pristine nature without additional activities or VP will offer the tourist activity that we all praise so much. And if the latter, then "development" and profit is possible also by building a bike park and marketing that activity... in my opinion VP missed that train, since Krvavec is actively working towards opening a new bike park from upper to lower station... and offers more friendly and up-to-date transport to that "tourist" branch...
But if there was an arranged "bike polygon" across Dolski graben, there would also be responsibility on the "profiteer" for the condition and maintenance of the path.
By the way, many cyclists on their own initiative, time, money, maintain the path Dolski graben also benefits from such actions.
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| BorisM31. 01. 2014 12:40:12 |
Gams44, what have you done so cyclists would come maintain the trails? Have you ever invited them to any maintenance?
My take on the situation: http://mtbilegalc.blogspot.com/2014/01/kramp-turca.html
P.S., so there's no fuss, I've only ridden down there once, not a frequent guest in that neck of the woods.
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| gams4431. 01. 2014 15:09:36 |
This is a hiking trail NOT A POLYGON FOR CYCLISTS let them make their own trail and sort papers IF someone gives them no point commenting 
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| Bojan285731. 01. 2014 15:47:06 |
Hi everyone?
I read so much smart stuff, I wonder since you know our parts so well, if it's possible by bike down Martinj trail with regular 5-speed
best
stay lads
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| FSkok31. 01. 2014 17:02:30 |
Yeah sure, and don't spare the fifth gear...
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| ljubitelj gora31. 01. 2014 17:12:22 |
The easiest is to ride on hiking trails that hikers maintain for years, cyclists have one here http://www.hribi.net/slika.asp?pot=99962. Last time I ran into a plowed hiking trail with cross above Dovje, various unmarked trails, bike tracks, trash, .... you see all sorts, but it doesn't bother me, because next time I head to some spot with solitude, say above Trento.
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| tol31. 01. 2014 17:26:42 |
Ban on "normal" cycling seems to me comparable only to allowing hiking in mountains only on marked trails. Everything else is fined 500 EUR.
What do you say?
@gams you've taken a position of superiority. You don't respond to arguments. Like rule makers. Best to ban everything, so on Saturday I'll rather choose which supermarket to go to.
You know what interests me Gams. Do you, despite the ban, drive with the car to Jermanca/end, like most hikers who so "respect" and support bans...
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| dprapr31. 01. 2014 20:09:21 |
@tol, with the first and last sentence you've hit the essence!
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