Cyclists in the mountains
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| tol1. 02. 2014 15:33:57 |
"So much arguing on this topic across various forums, but once you're out in the field, except for really rare exceptions, no problems between cyclists and hikers."
True, no problems in the field, there are exceptions in the form of individual excesses, when cyclists have already been attacked with weapons, set wires,...
The problem will be when they can fine us 500 EUR. And it's no devil, we'll fall into the trap of "wardens" who will nicely wait at the end of the trail, during the whole general campaign for "untouched nature"...
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| slamca1. 02. 2014 17:18:44 |
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| VanSims1. 02. 2014 20:38:35 |
@BorisM: Abroad not everything is open but there are nicely arranged MTB trails, sometimes on existing hiking trails, mostly as independent tracks, otherwise cycling on hiking trails is forbidden, let alone on unmarked trails and off-trail, not to mention national parks.
The link you posted announces that in Carinthia they plan to open 3000 km of MTB trails. Nothing else. On other trails it will still be forbidden for cyclists just like in other alpine countries.
Of course you find violators there too. In Germany, in Rhineland, two kids were doing downhill on a slope that due to the nicely shaped steep rocky terrain is very tempting for such activities, unfortunately there was a sign at the beginning that cycling there is prohibited. I didn't move aside for them. They didn't yell at me like some little Slovenian would or even threaten like it happened to FSkok with the team, but they started talking about how they could 'überhollen' me which they then succeeded in.
In France this year I walked quite a bit in the mid-mountains and noticed how nicely MTB and hiking paths are separated there. When descending from a hill at a junction it was clearly marked: right pedestrians, left MTB. Well, despite that shortly after I turned right a cyclist came up behind me. He didn't yell at me, let alone threaten, but nicely apologized.
So abroad they have laws regulating this and not everything is allowed, people mostly follow them due to culture and also if they catch you there they can fine you nicely. Whoever breaks the rules at least realizes that HE is the one doing wrong and that HE has to adapt to those who follow them.
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| BorisM1. 02. 2014 21:00:28 |
Just go a bit to the western Julians, Carnics, Dolomites, Tyrol. It's allowed everywhere except where prohibited. Here specifically western Julians and Carnics, where I ride most tours, haven't run into a cycling ban yet. The closest cycling ban in Italy for us is in Glinščica, and that's the only one around here. In Dolomites mostly banned in national parks. This year I cycled in Paneveggio Pale di San Martino national park, guess what the regime is there. Banned for cyclists, except on paths wider than 1.5 m (mulatterie).
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| lynx1. 02. 2014 21:43:44 |
The presence of signs doesn't mean something is allowed or not. Legislation or nothing. Since apparently no one read the actual bill proposal, I'm copying the only sensible relevant paragraph from the explanation. Unfortunately, the further analysis of foreign legislation is limited exclusively to motorized vehicles and doesn't apply well to cycling rules.
Interesting is the regulation in Bavaria (Germany). The Bavarian nature protection law states that riding on unsuitable paths and across rough terrain is prohibited and can be fined. This law is supplemented by the mountain biking agreement (Die Mountainbike-Vereinbarung in Bayern), signed in 2000 by the Bavarian state association of the German cycling club, German Mountain Bike Initiative, German Cyclists' Association, German Alpine Association, Bavarian Cycling Sports Association, and State Association of German Mountain and Hiking Clubs. The goal of this agreement is to set a framework for nature-friendly mountain biking, present conditions for mountain biking in nature, minimize potential conflicts between mountain bikers and other nature users, and promote coexistence among groups spending free time in nature.
But whether they have the same plan and/or the proposed bill allows it, I don't know. Without facts, anyone can be smart.
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| VanSims1. 02. 2014 22:00:56 |
And so it is elsewhere. It's exactly specified where you may and where not. Everything is nicely regulated and not everyone can just walk or ride wherever they want.
@BorisM: Just because nothing is written doesn't mean it's allowed, and when someone in charge catches you in Western Julians or Carnics, you'll pay. Of course it depends where you ride. If on forest or mountain paths, you're playing Russian roulette. But on wide forest roads maybe nothing wrong. Maybe the nonchalant Italians won't fine you, but with Austrians it can be merciless.
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| BorisM1. 02. 2014 22:12:29 |
Here VanSims, this is my Picasa. Everything across the border is allowed. We've been dealing with legislation for a couple of years and know exactly what the laws are in neighboring countries. Sorry, but I can only laugh at your ignorance. If you don't know, it doesn't mean it's not allowed!
https://picasaweb.google.com/117203276181969104622
And just in passing. In summer, at the top of Skutnik, buddies met Italian policemen. And guess what terrible thing they did, offered to take a group photo for them. Harsh punishment, worth crying over!
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| VanSims1. 02. 2014 22:23:04 |
Those pictures say nothing about the laws. They say you did the tours, not whether they were legal or not.
Skutnik is a border mountain and it's a question how much jurisdiction Italian police has at the top. If you descended on our side down, they don't care what happens across the border either.
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| BorisM1. 02. 2014 22:24:35 |
You are unbelievable, go get help, I've had enough of you!
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| tslok12. 02. 2014 00:29:29 |
Well, let me chime in and confirm Boris and tell from first hand how it was. We arrived at the top of Skutnik, just a bit after a patrol of one of the Italian police. There were 2 policemen and a policewoman. They nicely greeted and congratulated with classic Italian bravo, bravo. The woman was from Resia with Slovenian roots and knew a bit Slovenian, so we got into a short conversation. She said they take care of hunting and fishing control and also check if people pick up trash after themselves. We told them where we're going and they had no remarks. We asked her to take a picture of us, which she did. We parted without problems.
Here's a picture so no doubts!
[img>http://shrani.si/t/7/Oo/4PIMUTgc/dsc01337.jpg[/img]
Anyway, cycling culture in Italy is on an incomparably higher level than ours. Everywhere people greet you, cars and tractors on narrow roads stop in advance and let you pass...
Anyway,
We're no criminals, just people who like others want to enjoy the beauty of mountains. Like hikers we also follow certain rules and ethics and try to impact the environment as little as possible... After all most of us were in mountains before as hikers, alpinists, ski tourers, so we know how to appreciate mountains. Like everywhere here too there are some black sheep that throw bad light on all, but need to look broader. Please be patient, I think there's space for all in mountains!
Safe steps and reliable brakes!
best
Tadej
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| tslok12. 02. 2014 09:57:57 |
Of course, as I said, there are black sheep everywhere.
For myself I can say that, if possible, I avoid trails where I know there will be many hikers. In our area cyclists have cleaned and arranged quite a lot of abandoned and lesser-known trails, which most hikers don't even know about and which we cyclists use now. And it seems completely inappropriate to ban us from using them now.
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| tslok12. 02. 2014 10:23:01 |
One more thing I'd emphasize. Mountain biking is a sport of people in mature years, youth mostly races in bike parks. And 90% of people don't ride as "attractively" as it looks in all those internet videos. In practice stones and dirt don't fly around.
Let's say one example from our trip to the Carnic Alps:
https://vimeo.com/72588311
And now tell me I did damage, surely not more than hikers!
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| viharnik2. 02. 2014 10:50:52 |
According to assessments from foreign, already recognized established mountain biking countries (A,I,D,F,CH), the damage done by bikes is negligible compared to the trampling by hikers.
Completely different are downhill tracks, where due to braking, jumps, side leans in corners, there is soil erosion and destruction of undergrowth, and channels are also formed that further accelerate everything during rain.
Rather than guessing how a bike can harm nature, after many years of fruitless discussions on this topic here, we could finally categorize and explain where we can ride a mountain bike and where not. For adrenaline descents, they should introduce separate tracks just for that purpose, like the one on Pohorje or Krvavec.
Above all, legally adopted forest paths and trails should be properly signposted with time, length and difficulty data of the route or tour destination, as we see nicely abroad, especially in Switzerland or France.
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| miri2. 02. 2014 11:34:55 |
I found a solution. I'll buy a bike.
 1
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| BorisM2. 02. 2014 13:20:22 |
@primoza We mountain bikers strongly oppose such a style of riding too. Unfortunately they still happen, I agree, such behavior needs to be prohibited and punished. We also have black sheep, who then throw all the others into the same basket.
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| FSkok2. 02. 2014 14:26:45 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBAAWGYouRI
I'm guessing what the author wanted to tell the world on the web with this video;
a.To publicly reveal what an idiot he is.
b.To prove he fulfilled some bet.
c.Just "show off"
d.Intentionally provoke and fuel tensions on the hikers-bikers relation.
e.Or maybe he is actually a pedestrian and did it to smear and present mountain biking negatively to the public.
Given that it took him more than 8 min from the top to Šmartno?! I suspect he rarely sits on a mountain bike, so the last theory seems most likely to me.
@BorisM, This Jernej also signed it, so you'll easily find him and give him a lesson for the damage he did to mountain bikers by posting the video.
lpF.
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| BorisM2. 02. 2014 14:29:26 |
Actually we already found him on FB. Looks like some kid who needs his ears twisted a bit. If you meet him, you can easily shove him into some nettles.
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| JusAvgustin2. 02. 2014 15:06:21 |
hahahaha, cuz amateur! Comments are eloquent enough. Downhill Šmarna gora?! To me it looks more like Upslow... Here's proof how one bad apple throws a bad light on the others... I have absolutely nothing against mountain bikers-this one I'd gladly "nagarbou"
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| VanSims2. 02. 2014 17:45:47 |
@BorisM, tslok1: In every country there are rules where you can and where you can't. For car drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, dogs,... And usually they are respected (there are exceptions everywhere who think they can do whatever they want). Only in Slovenia we argue whether laws need to be respected or not.
Otherwise I have nothing against cyclists either. I cycle too, not in hills but more on flat. Also not against mountain bikers, provided they don't disturb or endanger others with their cycling. This applies especially to mountain trails. On them the pedestrian has priority (regardless if cycling is allowed or not) i.e. the cyclist must pass him or in extreme case dismount and walk past, not that he rings from 50-100m behind "Get out of the way, I'M coming!" Such attitude is arrogant, intrusive and another way of curing complexes.
@Downhill Šmarna gora: Well, for such one if he doesn't have too much speed you nicely set up, OK you maybe fall to the ground (since prepared you can fall controlled) he flies off the bike which is usually worse. He'll be guilty, hope he learns the lesson too.
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