Cyclists in the mountains
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| BorisM3. 02. 2014 18:10:18 |
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| lynx3. 02. 2014 18:22:04 |
If they keep their word. Because I read the text, I don't understand all the madness at all, since it explicitly allows riding bicycles on agreed hiking and forest trails. Isn't that the goal all along?
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| BorisM3. 02. 2014 18:43:16 |
Such a law has been in place for seven years, so far only one trail has been officially opened. According to some data, there are 120,000 mountain bikers in Slovenia, very active probably much less. Now imagine at this speed of opening trails that crowd of cyclists condemned to two or three trails.
Also the fines that were planned are abnormally high. For our club with annual budget 400 €, organizing a group tour would be maximum fine 150,000 €. That means we would pay it off for 375 years. Besides there are of course fines for organizer and participants. If you drive maximally drunk on the road the maximum fine is I think 1200 €, I don't know haven't tried. Not to mention ban on issuing guides etc..
So we fight for opening all trails, those that are overburdened or owners don't agree with use, those are closed.
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| VanSims3. 02. 2014 19:07:56 |
@GregorC:
"You'll still ride on legal paths (including hiking ones above the forest line and in high mountains), even without the MTB sign on the left."
It's certainly defined in the law where it's allowed and where not. I've said it's not necessarily explicitly marked as prohibited or permitted. What is allowed and what not is determined by the law (even in traffic it's not always written 'prohibited' but it's often understood). And no one will sell me bullshit that in Europe you can ride anywhere you want. Pedestrians(hikers) can't go anywhere, cars can't, motorcyclists can't, tractors and motor cultivators can't, livestock can't be driven anywhere (only in Slovenia you're driving on a registered state road and a herd of cows comes at you and you barely swerve - personal experience), so probably cyclists can't either, right?
Abroad it's exactly known on which road categories cyclists are allowed and where not. Even where there's a parallel bike path, usually not on the road. In Germany e.g. even in the valley strictly separated paths for pedestrians and bike trails and God forbid you end up on the wrong one (I did by mistake and thank God only got a verbal warning from the cop because I was "Ausländer").
So certainly regulated in the mountains too. And seen it myself many times. Parallel MTB and foot path and everyone on their own. No one disturbing anyone.
And don't mountain bikers go defensive right away. No one wants anything from you. At least not me. I support you in getting this regulated here. And if the goal is "explicitly permitted cycling on agreed hiking and forest paths" isn't that it? Or do you want anywhere you want. I hope that won't be accepted here, even if maybe somewhere in Europe, which I strongly doubt.
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| BorisM3. 02. 2014 20:01:26 |
Now I'm not surprised at all that dogs don't like you, cyclists don't want to greet you, someone snaps at you. For three days we've been telling you how and where it's legal to cycle, but you like a squeaky record, CccCCcCccccc. Shake out that law that in Italy everything is prohibited except where marked.
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| lynx3. 02. 2014 20:01:41 |
No, currently both are prohibited, so this proposal brings relief. Now I understand it's about much bigger appetites. Good luck, suddenly we're not on the same side anymore.
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| VanSims3. 02. 2014 20:28:09 |
Now it's clear to me too and I'm no longer a supporter. It's actually about mountain bikers wanting to ride anywhere they want. And of course propaganda is needed that it's like that in Europe too, which of course IS NOT TRUE.
And of course disqualify, smear and disable those who claim otherwise, falsify their words,... as the last post @BorisM shows. Typically Slovenian! The person wants good but you do this.
Now at least we know where we stand and let everything stay closed to mountain bikers, doesn't bother me!
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| lynx3. 02. 2014 20:56:04 |
Well, you weren't 100% constructive either.
No one attached any legislation, so everything regarding abroad is more anecdote than proof and thus no sense to continue discussion on that aspect of the issue.
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| BorisM3. 02. 2014 21:02:30 |
Can't because there isn't, legislation only regarding motors, and bikes not included there. Bikes are just prohibited on certain paths or national parks.
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| lynx3. 02. 2014 21:42:15 |
Nothing can be prohibited without legal basis, so you're contradicting yourself. It can be quite loose and leave everything to founding acts, management plans etc. of those protected areas and similar for "certain paths" (e.g. municipal decrees). But it must exist.
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| mmuz3. 02. 2014 23:37:29 |
When translating from foreign languages, nuances are very important. The above Dolomites link actually says that "green paths" (it's the color on the map) are proven suitable for mountain bikers and not that they are the only permitted! Further on, the author explains that you can continue also on "white paths" (paved or unpaved) or try your luck on "red dotted" ones - for these there is no rule how they look in nature and they are therefore pleasant for a mountain biker or not. So cyclists are far from limited only to "green paths"!
It is also worth mentioning that the above link points to the website of a sports agency of two foreigners in Italy, so it is better to turn to a more reliable source - legislation. Here I will partly help myself with Italian sources (legal Italian is something horrific..), predominantly with the material of the National Assembly RS "Comparative overview - Regulation of travel in the natural environment of the Alps", 10.10.2011.
Italy at the national level does not regulate mountain biking, therefore leaves the decision to individual regions. In Friuli-Venezia Giulia outside nature parks there are no restrictions, within parks the rules of the individual park apply. In Veneto cycling is permitted by law on forest-pasture paths (to which belong hiking paths, mulatieras and forest drags), but not on meadows, pastures, ski slopes and mountain paths (where the concept of mountain path is defined in the legislation in a typically Italian complex way, a combination of many features such as altitude, accessibility to huts and bivouacs, "artistic impression", social interest etc.). Trento - one can cycle on all paths where the path width is smaller than the distance between the front and rear axle of the bike or the slope is under 20%. So "steep" wide paths or "gentle" paths of any width. Bolzano - Alto Adige: cycling in the environment is not generally prohibited anywhere except on individual paths (parks, water areas), where it is explicitly marked.
That's about Italy; for a reliable source of information on legal regulations regarding mountain biking in the Alps, I recommend reading the overview prepared by the Commission for Touring Cycling of the Mountaineering Association of Slovenia, at the link http://ktk.pzs.si/vsebina.php?pid=131. The overview also contains links to sources - laws of individual countries. I think there can no longer be any doubt about the legal regulation in other countries.
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| FSkok4. 02. 2014 00:00:20 |
As far as I know, the cycling lobby advocates for a law that cycling should be allowed everywhere except where explicitly prohibited!
If they succeed in forcing such a law, I'm afraid the following will happen;
Since caretakers of hiking paths will remain PDs in the future, they will have to submit a proposal to prohibit cycling on a certain path with arguments to the competent ministry and if approved, guess who covers the costs arising to properly mark such a path. Yes, the caretaker, i.e. PDs or hikers.
So, if such a proposal succeeds, cycling will be possible everywhere except on those paths for which PDs engage and also pay for the ban.
Fairer to hikers is the current hiking paths law, which in Art. 19 point 3 allows, via the caretaker to the ministry for education, submission of a proposal for permitting cycling on a certain hiking path; in this case the interested party bears the costs!
I think the law should remain the same in this article so that if anyone wants to requalify a certain hiking path, they must also engage for it and bear the requalification costs.
Franci Skok
PS by the way I myself occasionally ride a bike on a hiking path, but since I know it is against the currently valid law I don't "..brag" and publicly convince no one that it is ok!
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| BorisM4. 02. 2014 07:20:56 |
FSkok, in your own ranks you have 30% of mountaineers who are also cyclists, so it's not just mountaineers who are path caretakers. In one of the previous posts I also gave links to albums where we were maintaining paths, most cyclists were not PZS members. Currently we are trying very hard to have even more of that, which unfortunately will be very necessary this year. With such an attitude, this is ours, only we can walk here, I'm afraid you'll drive more away than you gain, they will still ride anyway, no matter how high the fine for it is.
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| FSkok4. 02. 2014 13:54:51 |
BorisM, regarding the maintenance of mountain paths it's not just like that, if I have the will and time then off to the action. In ZPlanP from 2007, Article 12 specifies who and under what conditions can be granted custodianship over mountain paths, in short it can be a PD that has at least 30 adult members, of which at least two must meet the prescribed conditions for path markers, i.e., completed path marker training.
Of course, as path markers we are grateful for any help we get at actions, but the problem arises when on such a work action, which must of course be registered, i.e., official, (God forbid) someone gets injured who by law shouldn't be there. Because of that, in practice we usually try to avoid help from "civilians", especially when the danger is assessed as too high. I hope it's clear to you now that neither mountaineers nor path markers own the paths, but custodians must adhere as much as possible to the valid legislation to avoid consequences, because after all these are not physical but legal persons and penalties are accordingly for non-compliance.
Since I assume you are very enthusiastic in this field and surely a member of some PD, I invite you to complete training for path marker, it's not that hard anyway, but it requires investing quite a bit of energy, especially free time. I'm attaching a link, you have time until the end of the current month.
http://kpp.pzs.si/novice.php?pid=8795
cheers, Franci Skok
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| FSkok4. 02. 2014 14:22:52 |
That bikes will continue to be ridden on mountain paths even though the conditions specified by law won't be met is of course true, although maybe everyone will weigh the decision between respect and the risk of fines or injuries a bit more.
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| tine.sl4. 02. 2014 17:00:28 |
And then you wonder why no one is maintaining the paths?
In our local PD it's like the main path marker is anyway too old, otherwise hats off for what he did in his time. There's one young one who anyway just talks and doesn't even know where some path is and doesn't care, prefers to drink something. And then there's the middle one who tries his best but of course can't do everything alone, and a couple of civilians, good that they are. But civilians are always the same and when they too give up someday, then there will be no one anymore.
Yes there are also those who go on Sunday morning instead of church to the hut for beer, so they have an excuse at home and darkness in the hut for talking about what all they did for mountaineers.
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| lynx4. 02. 2014 17:26:19 |
If I judge by ours, supposedly the largest, they don't know how to activate the membership. For at least five years they haven't asked for help even from MO, then at the assembly they complain that there are too few of them.
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| BorisM5. 02. 2014 06:52:52 |
@FSkok, I'm not a PD member. But if path markers need help, you can contact me and I'll gather a couple of cyclists who are willing to help.
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| CAR5. 02. 2014 19:32:05 |
I'm a path marker member, I work to my abilities or as much as my free time allows, but I'll tell you this: if we picked up cans and bottles left by our mountain and forest visitors (pigs) there wouldn't be time for any other work. As for cyclists I have nothing against adrenaline rides but not on pastures and marked paths since a lot of effort is invested for the path to survive, water does its thing, believe me, there's no need for cyclists to destroy it in their own way and I would also emphasize that every cyclist should be aware if there are injuries on a marked path (knock down or graze a hiker) they bear full responsibility for that, brains in hands and not in feet and arms.
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