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| penzionist16. 09. 2010 00:17:42 |
Probably no one disputes that it's safer to have various protective devices. Even a helmet. And actually everywhere. Swimming pool or kitchen statistics are of course something else than mountaineering ones, but in all of them people appear with their heads (or whatever grows on top of their necks).
What bothers me is the desire to establish such usage as mandatory and of course with corresponding sanctions for violators. If it's somewhat expected from Igor (as the arm of authority), it's quite strange from others. For example, no one forbids Mr. VanSims from using a helmet almost anywhere - so why does he advocate that if he has it, everyone must have it? Maybe... he just feels a bit annoyingly special and would like some stupid law to bring him back among the "normal" ones?
What would a law on mandatory helmet use mean? Most likely it would be mandatory from the parking lot onwards. And you trip somewhere on an otherwise nice path, twist your ankle and pay all treatment/rescue costs yourself because you didn't have a helmet!? Because according to that law you're almost a criminal.
Just like it happened to klm, it has happened to many others. For me, for example, a several hundred kilo heavy stone rolled from under my feet from under the "little Triglav" in Vrata. That stone over which the path was led and over which thousands of feet went... and the stone missed my then few-year-old daughter by half a meter. I dare not think what would have happened if it hit her. But.. should we next time move around in armors because of that? And even better - should I demand that everyone else around must also move in armors?
Absolute safety is probably only in solitary confinement.. everywhere else something can happen to you.
Now I most often rejoice at a random mountaineer if we meet on less crowded paths. Is that the vision of the smart ones, that in the future we should fear each other?
I think that the increase in "accidents" in the mountains, which are a consequence of health condition. Say a boy gets a stroke. In the middle of a sunny day, southern slope. Probably hot as hell for him. Did he (did they) have a helmet too? Plastic under which in the heat something must curdle.
And since many don't want to read properly, once again - I'm not against wearing a helmet, I'm against repression! I'll try to be responsible for my own head.
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| IgorZlodej16. 09. 2010 06:28:51 |
I wrote: "Actually, the helmet should become a mandatory part of equipment in the mountains". That means everyone just carries it with them and uses it where they judge it could be useful. Exactly the same as with crampons, for example. Of course, it's not expected that there would ever be penalties in the sense of fines for non-use. But insurance companies will probably regulate these matters soon, strictly requiring assessment of each damage case and paying insurance based on that. There, probably no one with a cut on the head will be able to claim they used a helmet and get compensation under their nose.
Anyway, as I see, some understand this, some don't. Well, Bavarian Grintavec is a beautiful mountain and attracts both those with and without.
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| EUGEN16. 09. 2010 09:28:09 |
Interesting:
How long have people been going to the mountains, but helmet use has been around for 5-6 years.
I won't say it's a fashion fad, everyone should decide for themselves if they'll wear it.
Insurance companies would just collect and look for excuses not to pay out.
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| klm16. 09. 2010 10:07:16 |
I recommend reading Peter Schubert's book "Dangers in the Mountains". Educational reading. Certainly, helmet use is an individual's decision, just like going to the mountains or choosing a goal. The helmet also only performs its function and is not omnipotent. In case of falling rocks, it protects us so that they don't pierce the brain membrane, or the impact force is distributed over its surface. In short, with larger rocks or greater impact force on the helmet, there is still a high probability that the impact will injure us, but much lower probability that the consequences will be fatal.
On some things we have no influence, namely in mountaineering we are constantly accompanied by objective as well as subjective difficulties. Let me just mention one somewhat known absurd example where the actors had no influence, namely the fall of a small stone on the head of Miro Štebet's daughter in the Martuljek Gorge. He vividly described the consequences in his autobiography "Preizkušnje". Of course, the question arises here, what if... but the author has already pondered that many times. But the location of the event is such that one would never think of wearing a helmet there, yet one should have it. Therefore, it's best that each of us decides at their own will when to take it off the backpack and put it on the head.
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| JusAvgustin16. 09. 2010 10:53:23 |
In general, people's awareness in Slovenia is rising regarding equipment for mountains/hills/alps (based on my experience). But there will always be those few percent who think they don't need it. Everyone should first take care of themselves so as not to endanger others in the mountains. Because once a "projectile" flies past your head, you think hard and it's no longer funny. I wish everyone many more successful, above all safe trips...
Juš Avguštin
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| sjevnika16. 09. 2010 12:02:40 |
Hello,
regarding your discussion, whether helmet makes sense or not: as long as I didn't have it, I obviously was lucky, since I persistently wear it, my helmet has collected quite a few dents.
True, it was smaller projectiles, it was unpleasant despite protection, I don't know or don't want to know how such an impact looks like with unprotected head.
Take care of yourselves.
Best regards!
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| dusi16. 09. 2010 12:03:18 |
EUGEN, we also drove cars without fastened seatbelts. And now?
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| jaz16. 09. 2010 12:07:39 |
Come on klm, you'll spread wisdom here and give advice and talk about some statistics. And even mentioning Miro Štebet when you know nothing. Especially it wasn't a pebble, even less his daughter, it was his five-year-old son. Cheers!
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| pikec116. 09. 2010 12:48:09 |
I have a helmet, but not always. I have it when I go on such a tour where I know I'll need it. From experience I know it's mandatory in the wall!!!! Experience made me think when a proper stone flew past my head (I had a helmet!) whistling. When I yelled watch out (for those below) it was too late, the stone hit some gentleman (without helmet under the wall) luckily on the shoulder and he fell badly on the scree. As far as I saw he was bleeding a lot.
LP Grega
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| bagi16. 09. 2010 14:08:42 |
I've been using a helmet for a long time. It's already showing  It came in handy during my own stupidities, when you pull up and hit your head ...oops ...helmet  into the rock above you, as well as in real cases. Animals, people, rope, terrain itself ... all potential causes for triggering rocks. And no, I don't wear it always, but on my own whim  . So far it's worked out .
Bagi
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| jusuf16. 09. 2010 14:38:57 |
Obviously Bavarian Grintavec has turned into a pro/con helmet discussion. So my opinion too:
. helmet of course YES, although it doesn't solve all problems by far
. just writing about it is useful, because people are more aware of dangers in the mountains and thus maybe more careful with themselves and others
. unfortunately the stone that a careless hiker triggers doesn't fly to his head
Good luck with or without helmet!
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| klm16. 09. 2010 16:22:32 |
Mr. / Ms.: small replica. Where did I scatter (not scatter?!?) any statistics!?!
Who are you to forbid me from scattering wisdoms and unholy things, and so what if I mentioned the tragic story of Mr. Štebet. I remembered the story associatively while writing the paragraph, and didn't go empirically check what gender he was. If the mention of the event was controversial, the author himself wouldn't have described it in the book and thus passed it to the wider public... anyway, I mentioned the event only because of the absurdity of the case. Whether it was a boy or a girl, ultimately for the reason of my citation, is not important, despite all respect to Mr. Stebe Mira and his deceased CHILD. Namely, the reason or motive for my citation of the described tragic event you took out of context, like a typical politician.
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| dogna16. 09. 2010 16:52:36 |
Uf, this discussion is hot. I myself have three helmets: for mountains, bike and skiing. For bike and skiing I always put it on my head, in mountains by my own judgment, in wall always. I know sometimes they looked at me a bit strangely, well, I also looked at those in sneakers, there in rocks. Well, if everyone looked how it was before, we'd still walk in fringed pumparicas and spiked gozarji. Well, good luck, with helmet or without.
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| hanč16. 09. 2010 18:18:04 |
I really didn't think that with this question about the helmet I would turn everything upside down. But I did get a lot of smart advice. And I'd rather hear something more about Bavški Grintavec which is so mighty.
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| Lothar17. 09. 2010 12:25:43 |
The helmet is of course useful under walls. Even if there's no falling rocks, you can hit the rock above you (happened to me twice).
As for those who promote or even demand helmet use everywhere - even on grassy and forest slopes (like southwest side of Begunjščica) and while walking on the ridge (where the only thing above you is the sky) - they should think a bit about themselves and what they demand from others. Do what you want - for me you can go to work with helmet too. Just leave the rest of us in peace and let us take care of ourselves.
Worst would be a law requiring mandatory helmet wearing everywhere in mountains, since mountains are far from the same as bike or motorbike, where most of the time you're in greater danger of head injury. Of course in mountains too there's a chance to trip (over some root or rock) and hit your head in the fall (that's why trekking poles are useful, with which you often catch yourself before the fall ), but that chance exists also for runners (maybe even greater) and perhaps for various walkers stumbling on forest or nature paths. Why not demand mandatory helmet use from them too? Since the possibility exists.
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| igorf17. 09. 2010 12:44:19 |
After all these discussions I got the idea to start wearing knee pads. Well, I haven't had anything hit my head yet (though I diligently use helmet...). How many times I've banged my knee or a bit lower against a rock while watching above me, I couldn't count. Only I haven't decided yet whether to wear them voluntarily or mandatory.
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| Lothar17. 09. 2010 12:56:53 |
@ igorf: I too have cursed several times when I hit my knee on a rock without any protection on it. What's even worse, no mountain gear store sold any knee protection.  So it seems I'll have to get those for rollers (which are of course too bulky and unsuitable for mountains.. in some narrow precipitous sections they could even mean death  ).
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| lepenatka17. 09. 2010 12:59:29 |
Market niche... the idea is important.
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| Mavrični27. 06. 2011 07:43:16 |
Hi!
I'm interested if anyone has been recently to Bavški Grintavec, what are the conditions?
Thanks.
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| raubšic28. 06. 2011 12:55:23 |
From the south side it's Sahara in places, from the north Arctic in places!
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