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Begunjščica

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robter29. 12. 2013 12:37:11
Ajga LG. Although I usually just read and think to myself, I have to pour out my thoughts on the keyboard, even though it's completely off-topic for this forum thread.
I don't know why you always have to have the last word. If you comment on something and someone after you writes something, you always add something. Sometimes you have to bite your tongue and stay quiet. Everyone knows for themselves what they can and cannot do and what they are capable of. And if Juš or someone else mocks something, you always add something.
Even the alp. instructor or those Croats yesterday could face an accident (such or another), just like me or you.
LP
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viharnik29. 12. 2013 13:08:35
It's completely inappropriate to make a big fuss about posts of some mountaineers and repost them in the current snow conditions. If they managed some ascent within still "safe" limits, it doesn't mean that similar paths are suitable for everyone. Here regarding human mastery of nature, I'd strongly adhere to the wise thoughts of Jak Ortar, because many top Himalayan climbers have already succumbed in our mountains due to carelessness and overconfidence.
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ljubitelj gora29. 12. 2013 13:34:37
If the problem is in posting someone's web album, then I apologize; I thought it might help someone, since these are exactly forum conditions, although today it's already different.
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jedriličar29. 12. 2013 15:04:00
@Lg: there's no problem with you putting the link to pics from Y yesterday, nor that you probably thought you were doing a good thing so someone else could see what the conditions were like yesterday on Begunjščica. To me personally it's scary that the guy who led the team to Y probably considered it a good adventure and good fun, while completely ignoring the conditions and the last avalanche bulletin from Friday (danger 4), and look at his team, half of them don't even know where they were, or they see it as 'we studs climbed Begunjščica when no one did', one even has no helmet on his head ...etc., etc., could list till tomorrow ... and then they put it on the net for all to see, like 'look where we were' ... , isn't it weird that there were no touring skiers on Zelenica that day nor anyone else in the gullies, just that group of irresponsible and stupid Croatian adventurers (deliberately not writing alpinists, because they aren't) ??? Enough for the smart ones, and those who think it was really cool and the guys cool, I wouldn't go with them even to the top of Učka .... lp everyone, happy 2014 to you and as many beautiful and safe ascents as possible I wish you ....nasmehnasmehnasmeh
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Lucid_Irrationality29. 12. 2013 16:05:04
Hi everyone!

First, apologies for my "Slovenian"; I'm reporting from Varaždin and Slovenian isn't my strong suit (but I try).
So you know right away who it is - I'm the one without helmet velik nasmeh Why? As a true cavalier, I gave my helmet to the girl (who unfortunately didn't have one).

Now, since you all lined up as know-it-alls, nicely explained everything to us, shat on us "with gloves" as much as possible, let someone who actually trampled snow yesterday speak up.

First, Jedrilicar: your last post says much more about you than about us. I didn't come to present myself as the man who swallowed all the world's wisdom and circled all the world's peaks, but you talk nonsense and please keep it to yourself. First, it's not true, second, you come off as stupid. The "guy" who led the team to Y has led so far extremely demanding trips, which you can nicely see on his Picasa profile. Besides, we were on Y when conditions were tougher, and we knew very well what we were doing and who we were taking with us. In the end, experience is gained when you throw yourself a bit out of the comfort zone, right? mežikanje

As for conditions: the bulletin noted avalanche danger 4, when we got there it was already 3. Before departure we contacted the hutkeeper, who told us how much new snow had fallen and what kind. He also said that avalanches had already slid, and given the temperature that night and during the day, it was unlikely there would be new ones, at least on the north side. Well, since we had already driven about 250 km, it didn't hurt to assess it ourselves, right?
It was obvious that the snow was powdery and light, the wind lifted it like dust, so there was no real danger, except near the top where wind slabs formed from the south over the north side, so you need to pass under them quickly (and quietly, not barking, which is obviously some people's strong suit).

As for Y, the left branch is as filled as the right (in the pictures), but near the top on the exit you'd have to tool through frozen rock full of holds, so, considering the rest of the team that was with us, we skipped that and took the right exit to the ridge, where there's only snow. Snow sinks in places up to the waist, but it holds well.

Unfortunately, there was no view because the ridge was battered by extremely strong wind carrying clouds.

Anyway, I have no desire to argue about this or that. We've climbed all routes with shaky spits (about anchors, no need to talk), soloed stupidities, climbed wet rocks, and even gone to the hills when avalanche danger was 3. That's the sport we do, whether we like it or not. It's risky, it can be terrible or it can be beautiful when all risks are reduced to the most rational minimum. Now, for some it's staying in the hall and for some it's breaking through a fallen avalanche. Whatever, I don't call you stupid, so don't call me that either. You weren't there, you didn't see the conditions, but we WERE and KNOW what we saw, and in the end we passed everything that needed to be passed.

Otherwise, the whole team follows this forum because it's extremely useful and up-to-date; we'll continue to follow (if I don't log in again and comment), best mountaineering greetings to all and lots of luck further!

Pero
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redbull29. 12. 2013 16:09:14
That's what I was waiting for,, well said Pero, hats off.

lp
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jedriličar29. 12. 2013 16:11:27
@Pero, friend, I still wish you more such studly and cool ascents, maybe you'll reach old age, who knows, you know that one: there are bold climbers and old climbers, but no old bold climbers, for me you still acted stupid and irresponsible, especially the one who led you, and to you nice alpinistic greeting....
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Žiga2229. 12. 2013 16:13:27
Heh.. OK, let everyone do in the hills what they want.

Although giving the helmet to someone because they forgot theirs is at least idiotic. The only right thing would be to turn back. But no, we drove 250 km, so let's risk a bit, even if the mountain collapses like the Albanian stock exchange. Just to get out of the "comfort zone", because there are no other ways!! And good that the risk was at a minimum and you had the situation under control. velik nasmeh
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viharnik29. 12. 2013 16:24:32
That guide at the front as "experienced" should know that one avalanche doesn't even remotely mean acceptable conditions for ascent for them, saying the mountain has already cleared itself before them. A fresh avalanche primarily indicates that something is currently happening on the mountain, that conditions are by no means stable and not the opposite.
Anyway, in the end let everyone count their own conclusions...as is destined for them.
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Zebdi29. 12. 2013 16:29:34
@LG, don't ramble. The title alone is far from a guarantee that someone won't cross the safe boundary. Do you know how many alpine instructors, top alpinists, and mountain rescuers have died in the mountains?

If someone has already overestimated that they can safely reach 2000+ at declared 4th level, then at least don't publish it publicly. With this post they directly provoked (and of course got) criticism from all sides.
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redbull29. 12. 2013 16:54:34
settle on the couch and ramble as best you can,, why are you so worried that they went up there--I've said it many times, take care, you can slip when you go to the WC or some picture falls on your head when you sleep—then you're gone. Don't ramble!!!

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robter29. 12. 2013 17:15:57
Matej, I can add this too, if Mr. Slavko and Mr. Anže wanted their post on Hribi.net, they would have posted those two alpinistic ascents themselves, not you copying their links and killing the average "mountain lover" here.

But also on 14.12. you weren't wearing a helmet, but as you wrote yourself, everyone carries their own risk, so I don't judge you.

best regards
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jprim29. 12. 2013 17:21:20
Ouch, ouch, peekaboo ...mežikanje
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sinek33329. 12. 2013 21:33:01
Bravo redbull!!!! nasmeh
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viharnik29. 12. 2013 22:16:04
Primož, right now locally it's no longer safe to go to Lipanca to Jože, because an avalanche can easily take you on the last steep slope under the hut, which has already happened there in the pasteek.
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Busterman30. 12. 2013 02:28:06
Every time there's bad weather debates develop. Regarding risk etc., I think there's a big difference if someone moves in dangerous conditions who exactly knows the risk, versus someone who due to lack of experience doesn't even know danger threatens them.

In the first case I think we have no right to judge someone if out of desire for experience or whatever reason they consciously accept the risk and possible consequences. Mountains more than anything embody freedom, and in today's society where everything is controlled, prescribed and supervised they are one of the few refuges where everyone knows best for themselves. Of course this applies as long as that person doesn't post some dangerous comments (like: helmet not needed, belaying unnecessary etc.) that could mislead inexperienced people. Otherwise there's also the unwritten rule that such "excursions" are better not publicized (soloing, chasing powder when avalanche danger is quite high etc.)

In the second category are visitors who unknowingly accept risks. For them of course it is necessary to explain what they're getting into and then yes it's on them to decide if the risk is acceptable for them.
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JusAvgustin30. 12. 2013 08:55:44
Your first paragraph is full of contradictory statements!
Conscious movement in dangerous conditions certainly doesn't befit someone who is experienced and knows what he's doing there then. The mere fact that they checked conditions by phone speaks for itself. We live in the information age and internet is practically accessible to everyone. Karavanke are extremely covered for monitoring weather and avalanches. There are also daily reports on snow condition and transformation i.e. avalanche bulletin for Karavanke and there the 4th degree of avalanche danger has been since the first day of snowfall. On the same website there are also several graphs on snow condition and amount of new snow at Zelenica, as well as a webcam pointed at the S wall of Begunjščica... So next time before you get in the car and drive 250 km first click around a bit, assess if it's worth it, if possible ask a local and only then drive to Ljubelj.
Interesting also the fact that none of the locals were in the wall then, nor other experts of this S wall. Nowhere are there any posts on sections about any ascents, because it was and still is obviously too dangerous. In the end let me just write that you probably had more luck than sense, because the gullies there are distinctly avalanche-prone and since they no longer shell and intentionally trigger avalanches that area is among the more risky with fresh snow. I won't repeat the overused phrase, if you don't care then at least care for GRS, they would come looking for you anyway whether you were Himalayans or just in underwear!
Regarding the difficulty of the tours we obviously have different criteria, since Y is still "just" hiking. You're right, I'm writing from a comfortable armchair, at home warm. I've already had my "lesson" and don't intend to repeat it.

probably posted many times but anyway: http://www.natural-hazards.eu/bulletin/avalanche_karavanks.pdf?90%2C112

http://www.natural-hazards.eu/selenitza.html
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gorce30. 12. 2013 10:23:09
I was waiting when finally someone mentions the rescuers, because they will be sticking out their necks when rescuing "Himalayans or those in underwear" as Juš says. And if we think that these people also have families, further words are superfluous. So it's extremely vehement and immature to compare slips in the WC with mountain accidents, especially avalanches, when we know rescuers have already died while rescuing others. I wouldn't write if not heated by comments ala redbull. Obviously someone else still needs to get a lesson, but with some questionable if it will help...
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serznoz30. 12. 2013 10:39:05
Irresponsible, you "experts" can say whatever you want. What's the difference between the fate of the "learned" and the ignorant who go under the same avalanche-prone slope. It will bury both, just one will die "learned", the other ignorant. The smart one will turn back in time, the other will keep walking until he finds his own avalanche.
It's not just roads that have far more luck than accidents.
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Becar30. 12. 2013 11:47:46
It's right to condemn such nonsense right away so it doesn't accidentally get forgotten what is right and what isn't. Because it quickly happens that some publish similar exploits, and someone will already think it's normal. Just like many no longer know who the occupier was on our land, because they've heard politicians ferment nonsense.
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