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| VanSims11. 07. 2013 22:03:38 |
@ms_primoz: see, you know it! There's no point in being scared and trembling when you might slip somewhere, when you'll run into an insurmountable obstacle, when a storm catches you, when a stone falls on your head,...
Think with your head! And decide according to it on everything: equipment, movement, assessment of conditions, protection,... Then you don't have to be scared either!
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| Keko11. 07. 2013 23:07:12 |
@ms_primoz, I think we all participating in this discussion agree that in this case it's an easy tour and it will remain so. If different opinions and views emerge in the discussion, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we all stick to some code and don't insult each other and respect the opinion of those who think differently. If everyone thought the same, the forum would be too boring, so some dynamics are certainly welcome.
In the end, I too would congratulate these two young enthusiasts, as I've been following their exploits on various tours through the forum for about two years and I have to say they are really incredible for their age.
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| laik11. 07. 2013 23:16:12 |
I think that Keko summed up the whole "afngunc" from yesterday evening onwards..........I agree 100% with you 
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| ms_primoz12. 07. 2013 07:50:25 |
there's no point commenting anymore, and not because I look from another perspective...but because people no longer use their heads...
primoza - exposed places on the path to Kamniško Saddle - please, no comment...
of course my comments on the described path do not refer to the "exploits" of Žan and Ajda. Of course I congratulate them and keep it up.
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| Zebdi12. 07. 2013 08:16:46 |
@ms_primoz: but that's what we've been saying all along, but some don't want to understand. The problem isn't that people think with their own head - the problem is that they DON'T think.
Anyway, congratulations to Ajda and Žan!
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| Becar12. 07. 2013 09:12:16 |
Any warning about dangers is welcome here, it can't cause any harm. I myself had an unpleasant experience 10 years ago with Kamnik Saddle, admittedly due to my own stupidity, but still. So I agree with @primoza, @VanSims and like-minded people.
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| Pohodnica5612. 07. 2013 10:05:25 |
I'll add it, although I don't like getting into such debates at all. Congratulations to Ajda and Žan for such a feat. And for reflection whether to continue the debate, criticizing or anything else. I would never let two minors, even though they're used to mountains, on such a path. Wondering where parental responsibility is here 
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| Zebdi12. 07. 2013 10:15:37 |
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| ms_primoz12. 07. 2013 10:19:14 |
Pohodnica56 - I'm also interested why? The problem of today is that parents underestimate children because of their own incompetence and thereby make them incompetent. Hats off to Žan's and Ajda's parents. Keep it up.
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| SamoK12. 07. 2013 10:23:20 |
What Pohodnica56 wrote about parents exactly confirms my observation that the modern world hysterically suffers from countless dangers that supposedly lurk on us. "Loving" parents watch over children until the age of thirty and don't let them really grow up at all. I too congratulate the young man and young woman, and equally the parents who surely led them through the hills in the first years so they learned safe steps and assessing possibilities, now letting them confidently walk alone. Thus they will also be brave and skilled as adults and won't whine at every step about possible "traps" awaiting them.
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| pikica112. 07. 2013 12:04:26 |
I see it this way, the kids do tours with their dad that are demanding even for adults. What if something happened to their dad, slip, rock hit, illness... The kids would just be used to following him like two sheep after a shepherd. Those two would end up in trouble too and wouldn't know how to act or what to do.
Years ago there was an accident when grandpa was hiking with his grandson in the mountains and slipped on wet grass. The kid, I think younger than Žan, reacted better than some adult. He saw he couldn't reach grandpa and went alone to the hut, which wasn't even that close, and the path was off-trail. The kid then showed the rescuers where the slip happened. Grandpa unfortunately couldn't be helped, but the same could have happened to the shocked kid. Because he was well-trained and taught what to do if something happens, he stayed alive.
Every hiker should do at least one solo tour a year to be more aware of responsibility in the mountains. A group gives the hiker false security.
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| Pohodnica5612. 07. 2013 12:19:19 |
I'm by no means a supporter of babying children until thirty and beyond. My two, now adults, flew out of the nest at 18, also with my help. Just my opinion is that as a parent I wouldn't let such young children alone on such paths. As a hiker, however, I do most tours alone, in twos or threes and somewhat avoid large groups.
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| ms_primoz12. 07. 2013 12:30:55 |
if if if....typical, first you have to think of the worst (what if, and who if, and if, then if and if of if...hello?)...when I go to the mountains or anywhere in general, I don't think about what if... - no negative thoughts.
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| Keko12. 07. 2013 12:38:48 |
Letting two such experienced kids on such a tour is less dangerous than letting them alone on a bike to the nearby store. Children can do much more than most imagine. Nowadays children are babied too much and locked between four walls.
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| VanSims12. 07. 2013 12:52:11 |
Of course, I would let children as experienced as Primož's alone on at least easier tours. But no one should generalize from this that children can just be sent alone into the mountains.
Otherwise, I'm also a supporter of not robbing the child of valuable life experiences and letting it acquire them. We give basic upbringing to the best of our abilities, then let life teach it. Life will teach it much more than even the longest parental lectures, whose lessons children might not follow out of spite because parents said so anyway, who don't know anything! 
But still, it needs to be protected from those experiences that can irreversibly change its life or even end it.
How and what with the mountains is each parent's decision, but they must reckon that the child, if it really enjoys it, will sooner or later be of age. Is it better that then it starts walking around inexperienced alone or better that it gradually gains at least some experience beforehand?
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| SamoK12. 07. 2013 20:46:24 |
Uuuuu, dangerous! After these pics I've decided I really won't go to Kamnik Saddle anymore. Thanks for the vivid pictorial show of what the traps are, primoza. Now it's all clear to me!
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| Janiel7412. 07. 2013 20:53:14 |
If this is exposed and tricky, then I really don't know how it is elsewhere on really 100x++ harder and more exposed terrains.. purely honestly said!
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| viharnik12. 07. 2013 21:08:22 |
19 years ago, when I was 20kg lighter, I ran to K.S. from Dom K.Bistrica in a mere 55min, that even the hut keeper who offered me a glass of water in the hut didn't believe it, said it's impossible? .Back down I took a bit slower in 1h 15min with slow walking .Back then I was training karate and my thigh muscles were like rock, no fatigue, i.e. shortness of breath. Those were real youthful times.
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| SamoK12. 07. 2013 21:30:09 |
>everywhere is dangerous.
The scaredy-cats have now shifted into higher gear, so I'm signing off. Watch how you go to the toilet!
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